Re: underground electric fence

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lil kali's picture
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I was wondering what the thought about underground electric fencing is.  Does anyone have a fence like this with a doberman? How well do they work? Any input would be appreciated.

AlphaAdmin's picture
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An electric fence is only as good as the training you use with it. Many people make their dogs scared to death of the back yard by just putting up an electric fence - and that means many other problems.

If you can avoid using one, I would avoid it. If training isn't done properly you can cause a lot more problems. It's like that with any type of shock collar device. The dog doesn't know what is causing the pain so it will associate the pain with something seemingly random - like the whole back yard.

lil kali's picture
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any other comments

AlphaAdmin's picture
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Usually the electric fence companies have professionals who come out and train you dog. When shopping for a fence I would focus on the quality of that training. You can buy a do-it-yourself kit at pet stores - but I wouldn't try that unless you have some good experience using a shock collar for training.

rgreen4's picture
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While the underground fence may keep your dog in (with the proper training), it will not keep other dogs out. If you are not able to put a full fence around your property, consider fencing a smaller area either in front or back.

I am personally not in favor of any device, be it an underground fence or a remote controlled collar that shocks a dog.

lennon28391's picture
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i have an underground fence for my dobes and it worked great when they were young. now they are a year old and tough as nails and the fence is nothing to them.  i have the stubborn dog system and they would run right through it.  i say save your money. :-\

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lol

I think that has more to do with the intelligence of the Doberman and their lack of fear. Dogs usually become instantly confused from the shock and try to find safety. You Dobermans, Lennon, probably had the steadiness and presence of mind to figure out that, although the shock is a little uncomfortable, it doesn't hurt you. lol

This is a good example of why Doberman owners should use training to keep their dogs behaved, and not the numerous commercial widgets.

BlueNemo's picture
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I have an underground fence. It was given to me, the cheapo kind, with one collar. At the time I had 2 Dobes, my male stayed in the yard anyway, but my younger female would constantly run out in the feilds, and once I caught her accross the highway, scared me to death. So I trained her with the fence, and it worked for a while, but then she figured out that it only shocked once, quickly, and it was over, so she started running through it all the time. So I tied her up,  (20 ft cable), and trained my male to the collar. It worked great on him, he's very sensitive. I ordered my girl (Dori) a stubborn dog collar, put it on her, and turned her loose. She ran to the line, yelped, ran back, did it again, same result, and went and laid on the porch. So I figured, since she already knew where the line was, she would be fine alone. I went out to the barn, and I heard the most awful screaming, I though someone was attacking Dori, and when I got there, she was on the porch shaking. SHe'd run through and tried to keep going, but the collar kept shocking her and scared her. Now she won't leave the boundary (which covers a huge amount of yard and goes all the way around the house), and she is totally reliable with the fence. I don't leave them out all night, they're house pets anyway and like someone said, the electric fence doesn't keep strays out. But my fence works great and I love it. I got a smaller collar for my new puppy and she was trained in 5 minutes flat, reliably. She hears the beep before she gets shocked and backs up. It took her a while to learn the boundary line, but she got it now and I have no issues with my dogs leaving the yard. I do suggest to new buyers, get the stubborn dogs system, and LOTS of flags! Good luck!

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Yikes. Be careful with puppies and electric fences. NEVER use ANY type of physical correction, which is what a shock collar is, on a puppy less than 12 weeks. This is the Fear Imprint Period. Puppies can be seriously ruined by the smallest bad experience during this time.

Also, and in general, you should not use physical correction on a puppy less than 6 months old. They don't usually learn from pain at this time. Their little minds just shut down and make them submit and try to get away or hide. They're also not to smart about things at this age. It reminds we of this rescue we had. He was outside when a sudden storm came. The adult all huddled waiting at the door, under the overhand, for me to realize a gale was pounding on the roof - but the poor little rescue stuffed himself in a tuft of weeds and wouldn't come in the house. I had to get drenched and act happy about it coaxing him in with a happy puppy voice.

Regardless - an electric fence is better than allowing dogs to get away and end up on the other side of a highway.  ;)

avortman's picture
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As stated training is the key here.  If you do not faithfully follow the instructions on a consistent basis it is worthless.  It should never be used on a puppy.  If you train your dogs properly this teaches them where their boundaries are.  My dogs can go out with out the collar and still stay with in the boundaries. I look at it as a conditioning tool ( pavlovs dog)  The biggest mistake you can make is putting one up and just letting your dogs loose.  It will not work and if the dog gets out and sure isn't going to come back in.  I guess it is like any other training, or training aid; if you use it properly and consistently it works. 

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Absolutely Avortman, and length of training depends on the individual dog. My female Dori took 3 weeks to learn her boundaries, and even then after a week of being allowed to run unsupervised in the yard, she started running through and I had to buy a stubborn dog collar (which worked wonders). My male Nemo, took a week to train, reliably, after a few weeks he too started running through and I put Dori's stubborn collar on him and now he too is trustworthy. My female Peaches, was trained in 5 minutes, reliably. There was no fear, no yelping, she ran to the line twice, heard the beep and then got the static correction, and then realized the beeping meant a shock, and carefuly checked out the yard until she learned where the lines were, and now is totally trustworthy. ANY training tool is only as good as the person using it!

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I don't have an  underground one, I bought a PetSafe Proximity fence after seeing one some friends had with their pitbull/greyhound mix.  Took my girl about 3 days of training to get it; I watched her pretty close for another 3 before I decided she got it.  I've not had it or her very long, so I don't leave her for long periods unattended, but so far I'm quite impressed with the device. 

I trained her with just a beep for the first few days and then a setting of 1 for the 3rd day (tried it on myself first, 1 feels like touching your tongue to a dying 9-volt; doesn't hurt but you know it's there).  Once I had confidence in her ability, I turned it up to 4 (there are 6 settings).  I heard her yelp once with it on day 8; nothing since (had it for about a month).

I especially like the fact that I have no wires to bury and I could take it with me.  It was kinda pricy ($320 range as I recall) but I just love it.  I've had her out with me a few times without the radio collar on and she doesn't walk past her boundary, even if I'm walking down the street.

I read some bad reviews of this device on sloped property (I have a walkout and a slope down to a creek), but it works like a charm for me.

R. Marc

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My husband and I have a 6 month old female dobie and she is about 50 lbs.  She had a bad habit of biting, jumping and chasing my chihuahua and cat.  My husband is in the military so he had to leave for three weeks.  I weigh almost 100lbs myself and her jumping on me and the other things I talked about made it hard to deal with on my own.  We bought a shock collar.  At first I thought it was cruel until we actually used it.  It has a warning sound on it and if that don't work I can shock her.  Now after having it for two weeks she don't jump on me like she use to and my little dog can walk around inside and outside the house without fear she will jump all over her.  I think it was the best thing we ever bought.  I also say NO really loud before I shock her so she knows why she is getting shocked.  I don't know if it's the flower beds you are trying to protect but I sprayed amonia around them and it has helped a lot.

After reading your past posts there is probably more that could have been done with this puppy. To start with for anyone reading the shock collar is the VERY LAST place to turn to. Proper training from the beginning should have prevented this all together. No need to cause a 6mo old puppy this kind of pain. She is a puppy and you are the master and trainer. What she does and doesn't do is all on the fault or to the befefit of the owner. She is clay in your hands mold her and shape her the proper way and you will have the best dog for life. Treat her unfairly as with the shock collar and you may pay for it later.

What else have you done to train your puppy? Have you started her in obedience? This in itself would help a lot. You had mentioned in a previous post sending your puppy out for training. This is great as I stated earlier, but the Doberman is smarter then most owners and given your situation with no respect you would have the same problem as before. It is extremely important for any Doberman owner to train there dogs in a kind and gentle matter. 

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The collar was the last resort.  No offense but as u have stated before you are home with your dog almost 24/7 so you have the time to spend with them.  My husband and I work and I see her in the morning, lunch and evenings.  It's not an easy thing to "mold" them.  Have you read all the other posts about the jumping, biting and other problems.  Our dobi is at a rebellious age and tries to get away with what she can.  I couldn't take the chance of her making me fall so with my husband gone we had to use it.  I also used it on my hand to feel the shock and it doesn't hurt but gets your attention.  Like I said before we spent a lot of money having her trained and it did not fix the problems.  She is very smart and knows the words but rebels.

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At six and seven months they are like teenagers, they will try the boundaries. The key is to keep the boundaries of their behavior constant and not to let them keep moving them out because they are such cute young dogs. My six month old has tried jumping up on me on occasion and she get either the knee or if I don't have time the hip.

That the shock collar worked for you is ok, but you need to work with her without it, or eventually she will associate it with your presence and then she will avoid you, because being around you is painful.

KELLY wrote:

The collar was the last resort.  No offense but as u have stated before you are home with your dog almost 24/7 so you have the time to spend with them.  My husband and I work and I see her in the morning, lunch and evenings.  It's not an easy thing to "mold" them.  Have you read all the other posts about the jumping, biting and other problems.  Our dobi is at a rebellious age and tries to get away with what she can.  I couldn't take the chance of her making me fall so with my husband gone we had to use it.  I also used it on my hand to feel the shock and it doesn't hurt but gets your attention.  Like I said before we spent a lot of money having her trained and it did not fix the problems.  She is very smart and knows the words but rebels.

With all due respect it is only lately that I've actually been home almost full time due to cut backs at work. up until just recently  I have worked full time and STILL made time to train all of my dogs. Using a shock collar on your hand and putting it around your neck are 2 VERY DIFFERENT things. And to answer your question yes I have read about jumping up. Out of all my dogs that I  have trained not once have I EVER had to resort to shocking them. Like rgreen stated it is a very easy thing to correct. I don't understand why when people don't have time to train there dogs they insist on purchasing a dog like a Doberman. If you work full time and don't have time to mold them then get a cat, not a large intelligent dog that needs proper stimulation, training and work. Your Chihuahua suits your lifestyle better then a Doberman.

KELLY wrote:

The collar was the last resort.  No offense but as u have stated before you are home with your dog almost 24/7 so you have the time to spend with them.  My husband and I work and I see her in the morning, lunch and evenings.  It's not an easy thing to "mold" them.  Have you read all the other posts about the jumping, biting and other problems.  Our dobi is at a rebellious age and tries to get away with what she can.  I couldn't take the chance of her making me fall so with my husband gone we had to use it.  I also used it on my hand to feel the shock and it doesn't hurt but gets your attention.  Like I said before we spent a lot of money having her trained and it did not fix the problems.  She is very smart and knows the words but rebels.

You also stated you spent a lot of money having her trained. I talked about this in detail just recently. Did you train her yourself or just have it done? If you had it done then she never gained respect for you. I bet your trainer would not have any of these problems with her. Why? because he or she knew how to train the dog and the dog knows respect and listens to the trainer. Rebellious is one thing untrained is another. She sounds like a NORMAL puppy who someone else trained and the owners do not know how to get the same response from her. I still think it is unfair to the dog the route you chose but that is my personal opinion and everyone is entitled to one. You also asked if I had read the posts on jumping,  biting, and other problems. I breed Dobermans and have trained dogs for a long time. You don't earn the titles that  my dogs have out of ignorance.

rgreen4 wrote:

At six and seven months they are like teenagers, they will try the boundaries. The key is to keep the boundaries of their behavior constant and not to let them keep moving them out because they are such cute young dogs. My six month old has tried jumping up on me on occasion and she get either the knee or if I don't have time the hip.

That the shock collar worked for you is ok, but you need to work with her without it, or eventually she will associate it with your presence and then she will avoid you, because being around you is painful.

Very well put rgreen!

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Everyone should be like you.  Your just to good to be true.  My doberman is young and healthy and will grow out of this stage.  But the jumping is a huge problem and you actually thinks a knee to the chest feels so much better than a little jolt?  I don't understand why some people are so self-righteous.

I think if you were to ask ANY experienced trainer their opinion of using a SHOCK COLLAR to train a puppy not to jump on you they would agree! This is one of the simplest things to teach. I think rgreen gave some very sound advice and hopefully others that may be going through the jumping will try that rather then resort to a shock collar. By the way just how many dogs have you trained? Have you owned or trained a Doberman before? From the sounds of it not many, so to all others please try something else before shocking your dog!

Without proper training your young healthy dog will NOT outgrow it. That is what training is all about. Have you ever seen unruly dogs they are dogs that people don't spend the time to train and think will outgrow. Like I said before Dobermans are smarter then the average owner and will quickly take advantage of it.

Self-righteous NOT! Care about Dogs YES!

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Well there's your problem you assume everyone is a dog trainer.  No I have never trained a dog and never implied I had.  You've read some of these posts and lots of people besides me have lot of problems training them.  If your such a good trainer why not give some good advice instead of giving a bunch of criticism.

On the contrary I don't assume they are trainers and that is why I try and give advice. What is even scarier is for the next person that knows nothing about dog training to read a post such as yours and the magical fix it all cure of a shock collar. That person will go out and try the same thing not knowing the full ramifications of it. So while you may think that It comes across as criticism go back and read again and you will find good sound advice.

I'm well aware of all the people  that have problems training them and that is why I wont sell them to just anyone! As it states on my website they are not the dog for everyone. People make the mistake of buying these dogs and treating them as if they were a golden retriever or Chihuahua which they are not. As I've said many times they are smarter then the average owner.

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Kelly, I am not a trainer, and until the end of last July worked full time (I then retired at age 65). I am the only two-legged in the house. I do not train my dogs for obedience competition, but train them for obedience to live in the house with me. For this they have to get the basics, and I do have to put Red up when i work with Princess. He is much better trained than the Schnauzers, but then a 20 pound dog is not the problem that one weighing 100+ can be.

One other thing I should mention is that an effective tool is to do what their mama did for the first 6-8 weeks, and that is to pop them on the nose when they misbehaved. Mama used a paw, just a quick stroke to get their attention. Try popping you girl on the nose with the first two fingers of your hand when she jumps on you along with the word NO!

This one comes from Victoria Tensing for "It's Me Or The Dog". Have a friend come over and if she jumps on him, they are immediately to turn and leave, totally ignoring the dog. Correct her. Have them come back in, and repeat this again and again until she does not jump up. When that happens they should greet the dog profusely and pet her. The key is, if they jump she gets no attention, but if she does not jump, she gets attention. This will have to be done over and over.

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I will try it.  Yesterday when my parents came over she wouldn't stop.  I know she is excited but my dad was sitting on the couch and she was running circles in the living room and when she would come by him play snap at his head, hands whatever was closest to her drive by.

This is when you need to grab her by the scruff of the neck and give her a firm shake and tell her NO in a loud but very firm voice. Does she know the sit command? If so immediately follow it with a sit. I use the baby links prong collars on all my dogs including the older ones if need be. I would have that collar on and enforce it. It really sounds like she is ruling the roost, has high energy, and no respect. After you make her sit mind you, you will be holding her by the collar and ready to correct if need be, then have your parents or whomever try and pet her again. She must obey you, no if's and's or but's about it!

Just picture if you cant get this stopped now what it will be like as an adult large dog?

The part below that rgreen suggested by the trainer Victoria Tensing is a WONDERFUL IDEA! This is something that you do when  they first come to the door. It takes dedication and time and you have to arrange to actually train this so make sure the person participating is willing to help. I've heard about this and LOVE the idea behind it.

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I am a big fan of Victoria's show. I have learned a lot by watching it. Of course my dogs are perfectly trained - NOT. But they are trained to the point of not knocking visitors down. My Schnauzer's are wilder than the Dobes, they are more high strung and when I put them out they race around the yard for a while. Of course this behavior in a 20 lb dog is less dangerous than in a 80-100 pound dog. I do have a pending problem that I am going to have to handle, and than is Red and Princess tussling in the house. Right now I can't kick them outside all the time lest the mosquitoes carry them off. Hopefully in a few weeks they will be within reason so they can do that outside. or I will have to let them loose in the house separately. With people and other dogs, so far Princess is doing well. Red is just a big lovable lunk who simply puts his head under you hand to let you know it's time to pet the dog.

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I agree with most of whats said. A knee to the chest is a better correction for jumping than a shock collar. I have used a shock collar to train but jumping is NOT something that should be used for. You don't want to punish your dog for wanting to be near you. When she jumps on you, quickly grab her collar and make her sit, as soon as she is calm then show her affection. I know you are thinking, yea thats easy for you to say. My doberkid Dori used to jump on my all the time, and I used the knee in the chest. Now she jumps on me only when my back is turned  :-[ I spin around and grab her and yell "NO JUMPING!!" And it gets her attention, at which point she will come around to my side and sit down for attention. Its a work in progress but a shock collar will only teach your dog that touching you is painful.

Now for an example of what IS an appropriate way to use a shock collar. My Dori (yes, Dori again :P) Used to bolt every time she was let loose. She KNEW that COME meant to come to me, and she KNEW that when she did, there was praise and treats waiting for her. She just decided that the fun of running at top speed was a lot more rewarding than praise and treats. So I put the collar on her, let her loose, and yelled "Dori COME!!" She ignored me. "Dori COME"  Not even an ear twitch. I hit the button on the remote shock collar and yelled COME and she yiiiped and jumped sideways, and turns and ran back to me as fast as she could and sat by my feet looking over her shoulder at the spot in the yard where she was when she got shocked. She had NO idea that correction had come from me. I just praised her like normal and gave her the release command, and she went back to running. I yelled COME, she looked and hesitated, but kept going. I hit the botton again and she immediately spun around and headed back for me. About 3-4 repetitions of this and now when I say COME, she comes! Even when she knows she's done something wrong.

BlueNemo wrote:

Now for an example of what IS an appropriate way to use a shock collar. My Dori (yes, Dori again :P) Used to bolt every time she was let loose. She KNEW that COME meant to come to me, and she KNEW that when she did, there was praise and treats waiting for her. She just decided that the fun of running at top speed was a lot more rewarding than praise and treats. So I put the collar on her, let her loose, and yelled "Dori COME!!" She ignored me. "Dori COME"  Not even an ear twitch. I hit the button on the remote shock collar and yelled COME and she yiiiped and jumped sideways, and turns and ran back to me as fast as she could and sat by my feet looking over her shoulder at the spot in the yard where she was when she got shocked. She had NO idea that correction had come from me. I just praised her like normal and gave her the release command, and she went back to running. I yelled COME, she looked and hesitated, but kept going. I hit the botton again and she immediately spun around and headed back for me. About 3-4 repetitions of this and now when I say COME, she comes! Even when she knows she's done something wrong.

I agree to this somewhat. Mine aren't given a lot of opportunity to disobey. However, we do take our dogs on the logging roads and trails quite a bit for exercise I do think that the collar on these outings may be beneficial for the same reason stated above. Even though we always pick a trail that has no people on it you are never sure when you will run into wild animals or hunters. When we do go out the dogs will run just far enough ahead so they can still see us and turn run back to us and then forge ahead. When I call my dog if it does not come then I would not hesitate to use it, only in the case of danger where you need an immediate response.

I no longer have one of these collars, but did way back when before I knew any better. I quickly figured out if was a very temporary solution.

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RND just to clarify, this was only at my house, before I got the underground fence. I used to leave Dori on a 65' aerial cable trolly when I couldn't directly supervise her (not when I wasn't home), and she would bolt every time I'd let her off the cable. My house is on 8 acres in the country with no neighbors and we are set way back off the road. I never let her loose off the property until her COME command was perfected. Now after using the collar for a couple weeks on her, I can do what you said and take her to parks or whatever, and she will do like yours, run so far and then come right back, and un again. She always comes when called, even when there's something reallllyy temptingnearby.

BlueNemo wrote:

RND just to clarify, this was only at my house, before I got the underground fence. I used to leave Dori on a 65' aerial cable trolly when I couldn't directly supervise her (not when I wasn't home), and she would bolt every time I'd let her off the cable. My house is on 8 acres in the country with no neighbors and we are set way back off the road. I never let her loose off the property until her COME command was perfected. Now after using the collar for a couple weeks on her, I can do what you said and take her to parks or whatever, and she will do like yours, run so far and then come right back, and un again. She always comes when called, even when there's something reallllyy temptingnearby.

Bluenemo, I wasn't criticizing your use of it I was giving a similar situation scenario where I thought it would be appropriate.  My dogs are FAR from perfect even with the obedience titles they would STILL take off after wild animals or run up to someone in the woods if the opportunity presented itself. This is where I WISH I HAD THE COLLAR for emergencies only.

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I will try to be more firm with her I  just hate yelling at her a lot.  She listens to my husband much better than to me I guess because he's bigger and says it more forceful.  Talking about taking your dobi's out somewhere when is the right age to do that?  We are going to the lake for Mother's Day and other people will be there too having their own picnics.  Sometimes Raven won't come back when called and I just don't know when it the right time to do so, also ppl can be intimated by her even though she's a big baby.  She will be 7 months old next week. 

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Oh, she knows the sit, lay down and stay commands but only really does them if I have something she wants. 

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When you take her out in public, you really need to keep her on a leash, even if she is very well behaved. In addition to most likely being the law, it very good manners to be considerate of your fellow visitors to the lake. All you need is for her to run wild and knock somebody down (even if she never gets near them and they just faint) it will be your fault and you could find yourself at the wrong end of the law.

I never take Red anywhere off my property without being on the leash. Before I release him from the vehicle, he is on the leash. This is for his good as well as others peace of mind. Before you take her to the lake, check the statutes in effect there.

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We would have to keep her on a leash b/c she probably wouldn't come back if we called her and ppl are scared of dobermans.  I'm just not sure if she is mature enough for that kind of place yet.

KELLY wrote:

We would have to keep her on a leash b/c she probably wouldn't come back if we called her and ppl are scared of dobermans.  I'm just not sure if she is mature enough for that kind of place yet.

Actually you should be taking her to many public places this is part of properly socializing a Doberman it is a must. I do agree that you need to be in control. To start with make them short outings and specifically just for the purpose of socializing. It would have been much easier to start this with a 3mo old puppy then a 7mo. Anyone that has Doberman puppies should be doing this, it is a part of the responsibility of owning a breed such as the Doberman. The more your dog is socialized and trained the better companion she will become. If you wait until she is an adult you will have all sorts of different problems to work through.

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Well when we had her in training she had contact with other people and several other dogs, and that was at 4/5 months of age.  We will take her this weekend and see how it goes.  Should we have her on the prong collar or just a regular harness? 

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I would use the regular harness. The prong collar sends messages to everyone, the dog and the public that you really don't have control. If you husband is with you and has control that should be sufficient. But I want to emphasize again, you need to exert better control at home.

The harness I guarantee you will have no control of her. The prong needs to be used properly. What you don't want her to do is pull on the prong which some learn to do. Use a GENTLE quick released pop when the pulling starts and tell her whatever command you have for it. Mine is no pull.

Socializing is not something that you do once or twice it is a very deliberate plan of action. You may be better to not bring her on this outing if you don't have the time to work with her the entire time. It is better to have SHORT sessions where the dog has success and then go on to longer periods. What tends to happen if you take a longer session where you are visiting with other people is the dog is great while you are working with her and works like she is supposed to. Then when you start talking with someone else the dog starts on its own agenda and basically wipes out all the good things you just worked on because your focus is now not on the dog but other things. Does that make sense? I have a hard time describing things.

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I'm guessing that you are saying that she would have no control with the harness if she fought the harness. While the harness will have no corrective action, the dog will not be able to get free.

rgreen4 wrote:

I would use the regular harness. The prong collar sends messages to everyone, the dog and the public that you really don't have control. If you husband is with you and has control that should be sufficient. But I want to emphasize again, you need to exert better control at home.

Here obviously we have a difference of opinion which is good. Life would be really boring if we all thought the same way LOL. The one thing is IF they do not have any control to begin with, the harness just teaches the dog to pull through things. This is why I think it would be better to take short controlled trips and concentrate on training the dog rather than a social outing for the family. The outings for the dog should also be fun. I work mine a few minutes then give them a release command where they are allowed to go sniff and explore, on leash of course. This way they don't dread there training.

I also think if would be wise to invest the time to take group training sessions with her. They are usually very reasonable in cost. Not at Petco or Petsmart either, find a good training building that offers different classes. You want to find one that you can continue on to the next session and further your knowledge with.

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I agree that the harness is dependent on having some control to start with. It's just that I so abhor the prong collar with it's message to all that it is a last resort to gain control. For troublesome dogs I tend to favor the head collar that turns the dogs head when they pull. I admit that I have never used one as I have never had a dog that would pull like that. I have the advantage of weighing over 200 Lbs so I not worried with a dog pulling me. I also have a tendency to to choke up the lead on a dog that tries to pull. I did that with Red when he was young, to the point that there was only about 18" between my hand and his collar. He could not get the head of steam up to jerk me around the way some dogs are permitted to do.

rgreen4's picture
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I agree that the training classes will help in three areas 1) It will help socialize Raven. 2) It will help in Raven's training and help get her under control. 3) It will help in Kelly's training and give her the confidence to control Raven.

rgreen4 wrote:

I agree that the training classes will help in three areas 1) It will help socialize Raven. 2) It will help in Raven's training and help get her under control. 3) It will help in Kelly's training and give her the confidence to control Raven.

Very well said rgreen!

I hear what you are saying, the prong collar does look bad. In all actuality it's far more humane then the choke collar when used properly. Properly is the key word.

I also agree with you and care how my dogs are perceived in public. I try VERY hard to put out a good image of the Doberman wherever we go. In our town a few year back we fought very hard against a breed ban. For people that have never experienced having your breed put on a list of dangerous dogs it is a big eye opener. It makes you really realize just HOW important it is to have well trained and presented dogs.

KELLY's picture
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Thanks for all the advice.  Now I'm not sure what to do.ha!ha!  As far a training goes since we had her in a three week training course we can go back and have group or private training for free forever.  We need to do that, I just don't want her to make me fall.  She weighs half as much at I do and maybe she senses my insecurity and doesn't listen to me always.  My husband will be there and he can control her very easy and with the harness it's pretty easy but the discipline doesn't last long.  I would say we will be at the lake for about two to three hours.  I'm still not sure if we will take her or not but I thought getting her out of the house will the family would be nice.

group sessions would be good for her as it also helps in socializing. Yes, it would be very nice to get her out of the house and they need it, but I'm not sure that this should be your first outing. Like I said you really need to work on control and be consistent with it. It would be extremely difficult to do it correctly in this kind of setting. Short little trips that are just for her is the best way to start until her obedience is under control. Remember to make it fun though.

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I will try!

TopperHarley's picture
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Joined: 2009-06-17

I'm new to this forum and just couldn't resist adding my success with an electric fence.  My name is Topper Harley and I came to my family almost 2 years ago, I was 10 mo old at the time.  These loving but firm folks are my 3rd home.  First family had a toddler and couldn't bear my puppy-ness.  They left me in the crate with my waste, smacked at the crate door, and from my built-in responses, must have smacked at me a lot, too.  A teenage girl rescued me, but she wasn't equiped to deal with me either.  I raised dobe hell on the house with 2 school-age girls, a rottie, and a grandmom in a wheelchair.  I was relegated to live for the summer underneath the trampoline in the yard.  I snapped at the little girls and caught an ear, so I went through a quarrantine.  The law came after me and my new folks found me on Craig's list, just before I would have been snapped up by Dobe rescue.  Long intro, but...when I first came to this house, they never let me off the leash.  Not outside, not inside.  I was a little wild, you see.  My new mom ordered the fence right off, so it was installed just 2 weeks after I arrived, and I had never been free in this yard.  We walked around on a retractable leash for 3 weeks.  I'm so smart I only got hit twice.  I've only run through once since, and that was shortly after my initial training.  I chase tractors, bikes, runners, walkers, etc. as they walk along my property line, but I never go through - even if there's a dog-buddy!  I love the safety of my own yard.  We get lots of passer-bys.  I live right next door to the trash transfer station where twice a month folks bring their trash and recycling to put into dumpsters.  Many bring their dog-buddies, but I've never crossed that fence line.  There was this time when I had "border-creep" but my mom figured out that the fence wasn't working and I didn't really understand that if I got past the magic line, I could go all the way.  Oh, and the "owie factor" - it's preceeded by a sound that lets me know I'm too close.  And believe me, it's nothing like that fence the neighbors keep their goats behind.  Yow!  That one hurt, I only had to experience that once to know the goats are fun to watch from a distance.  My mom and dad never leave me out with just the fence if they're not home.  If it's 55 degrees or warmer, I'm hitched in the mudroom (a New England place where snow and mud and dogs can stay instead of entering the house).  Short order, my fence really helps me be a good boy.  Thanks for listening,
Topper Harley

rgreen4's picture
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Joined: 2008-10-26

Hey, Topper. Welcome to our forum. It sound's as if you have found a good loving home. Be sure to tell Mom that you love her and appreciate your nice warm home in the winter.