Overly exited when seeing children & other dogs, if he can't interact w/them

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Buddy gets overly exited. He really enjoys playing with other dogs (been to doggie day care & was from a huge kennel of tons of other Dobies) ,and he especialy loves children because I have been socializing him with children every day. And i have my own small children in addition to baby sitting other children on a regular basis.

Anyway, I know not All dogs will get along,but he can't go greet every dog he sees. A lot of them are un balanced or the owners have no control,so I don't let him greet dogs when he sees them. This frustrates him. He now growls,barks and looks like he is throwing a tantrum to get to the other dog. Not too many parents say "no" to letting their kids pet him. And he is used to walking by children with out stopping. However if he knows the child wants to pet/play with him he wants to go see them too ! :)
I was in a local fish store (that allowed me to bring him in) , and these 3 little boys started begging their mom (in line next to us) if they could pet him. She said NO. Buddy got frustrated because they were right there,and he couldn't greet them. He really does love kids. He has never barked at a child before. But this was the first time he was so close to a kid, and couldn't sniff/play with the child. I had to hold him back. So he started barking at them. I had to pick him up in my arms. I said quite frankly, "He loves kids,and barked because he's frustrated he couldn't say hi to them", and then left it at that. The mom was probably nervous about letting them pet him. So I didn't want her to think his barking was a indication for him being mean or aggressive toward them.

I truly feel, that in his mind he was thinking : "Come on you kids, why don't you come over and say hi, GET over here  !??"
This behavior is embarrassing and seemingly getting worse. I have been told that the leash can cause this, but there is a leash law,and he can't just be allowed to run loose. Then he'd be running to everyone for pets. It's not that he acts this way when e are around people . But when he knows the other person/dog wants to interact with him too. That's when he gets exited,and I can't stop him from behaving this way. He is 16 weeks. And otherwise confident with being in new public places . He actually seeks out attention sometimes and I do tell him no, and we keep walking,and he is OK. But he has such a strong "need" to interact with children and other dogs.
Oh and I don't see the other dog,until after he does sometimes, so it's not like i get nervous then he gets nervous... When i do see the other dgo or child, I try my best not to behave any differnt and ignore it. But once he gets exited , I have to try to re-direct him,but re-directing him doesn't seem to work. He gets so focused and so upset/exited . It's mainly other dgos that get him this way. He has never barked at a child until today,when the mom said no,they couldn't pet him.

glengate's picture
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I think that Buddy needs to learn the "leave it" command, which you can start around the house with objects or even with treats.  It's easier to train if the dog is on leash and when he shows interest in the object, you say "leave it" and give a small pop and redirect the attention to yourself and you could praise treat him for turning the attention to you.  Keep working on objects and later just transfer the command to people, other dogs, situations, etc. 

I find this is a huge problem with pet owners who socialize heavily with other dogs, in particular.  Their dogs have no restraint when it comes to other dogs.  Since I'm active in showing dogs, the dog show community obviously raises dogs that are fine around other dogs but they are taught to ignore the other dogs.  They don't have the idea that they can play with every dog they see.  Socializing my dogs to other dogs means something different to me.  It means that we can be around other dogs without bothering other dogs and that we mind our business in those situations.  Pet owners have this idea that all dogs must get along and have play dates.  I don't personally agree. 

I don't want to criticize but the worse thing you did in the fish store was pick up Buddy which provided him with praise/attention for an unwanted behaviour.  I realize you were in line and were embarassed but it was a time that Buddy needed an appropriate correction.  He doesn't run the show.  You do.  He doesn't "need" to have these interactions.  He just wants to and you've been letting him. 

Are you taking obedience classes? 

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Pet Profiles

Please remember that Hollywood has given our breed a bad rap. The dobie is usually seen as a villain; a mean, vicious, guard dog, ready to tear in to someone for no reason at all. Parents want to keep their children from harm and thus those who believe the Hollywood stereotype will keep their kids clear of the Doberman. Yep, even at 16 weeks Buddy can be a victim of that stereotype.

Please be careful in public.  Remember that a 25 pound puppy jumping up on a 6 year old kid can cause the kid to fall and scream bloody murder, even if all Buddy was doing was "saying howdy". Put Buddy in the sit or down position, then ask if the child can pet him. Once you have shown that he is obedient the parent's fear may subside a bit. And it trains Buddy that to get what he wants, a pet, that he needs to assume the proper position and be calm. Even so, some people will not want their kids, or themselves, anywhere near a Doberman. In that case thank them, tell Buddy he is a good boy for his sit or down and move on, we're not going to win everyone over.

If Buddy gets hyper and you can't quickly get him to calm down then remove him from the situation until he calms down, even if you have to get out of the line and step outside. You must be consistant about making him mind his manners. He is only 16 weeks old and is learning, and will be for some time yet, what those manners should be. I know I was embarrassed many times by Freyja acting the way you describe, but now at 18 months she has become a good ambassador for the breed.  Yesterday when we walked to the gas station she got more pets than Carter had liver pills.

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Freyja's Dad I saw something like that..on TV not sure who!!

When company comes all dogs get excited to everyone too, but they were jumping and being hyper on the guest! So every time the dog jumped and or got hyper, they got put into a locked room or crate, then removed every 5 minuets to test...again and again and again then the dog got it...Wa-la...calm means I stay out...hyper and jumping means I get put in the crate all alone. Worked too!  :o

Good Luck Buddys-owner!

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Buddy does not act hyper and jump on people at all !  I mentioned the barking at the child (was once,until I told him to stop and picked him up)  .  That was the first time he barked (come ON , I wanna PLAY !) He is so good with children,that he does either stand or sit. But he doesn't jump up. Im always right there to put him into a sit, before any child even comes near him. He doesn't even jump on my kids at home. I picked him out of his littermates because he was the only one that didn't jump all over us. I get compliments on his behavior when we are out in public too (ni non dog areas where other dgos are not around) .  He goes "nuts" ( barking AND jumping/pulling,lunging) with other dogs. That only happens at home when I take him out to potty, or go for walks or out in public if we are walking and he sees another dog. During those times it's not like I can do any kind of time out (putting in crate, ignoring,isolate,etc..) during those times.

Maybe with having my husbands friends coming over in the near future (I can ask them to come over on a regular basis) Give them free beer to have them come over, jsut so I can teach my dog how to behave using the time out method ,lol. I remember seeing that on tv . There is a Victoria so&so lady who does dog training shows on TV. I remember her doing this. I totaly forgot about that,thanks for reminding about that .
I wish there was a way to give some kind of effective consequence (in PUBLIC)  that will make him learn that sitting quietly/alternative behavior to barking works better.

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If I read too much into the incident at the fish store, which apparently I did, then please accept my apologies.  I guess I read my experience with Freyja into it.  As a puppy she didn't like small children and we had to watch her like a hawk around them.  She's fine around them now but it was a battle.

"During those times it's not like I can do any kind of time out (putting in crate, ignoring,isolate,etc..) during those times."

But what can you do?  You have to stop the behavior.  You can grab him by the scruff of the neck and give a firm, maybe loud, "NO". Put him in the down position as you do this.  Let him know you mean business, that you are very unsatisfied with this behavior and it is not acceptable.  There were times I had to stop beside the road and correct Freyja during our walks. It's easier to do at 25 pounds than it is to do at 70 pounds.  It may take a little while but he will get the message.  Eventually a "NO" will stop the behavior, then one day it will be gone altogether.

Keep working with him, it sounds like you really want him to be a great dog and I'm sure he will be.  It just takes consistancy, rewarding wanted behaviors and correcting unwanted ones. B. F. Skinner would be proud.   

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Buddys-owner wrote:

I remember seeing that on tv . There is a Victoria so&so lady who does dog training shows on TV. I remember her doing this. I totaly forgot about that,thanks for reminding about that.

Yes yes that was Victoria Stilwell!! Wasn't that just amazing how well that worked...and like you said that is for at home...

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I wish there was a way to give some kind of effective consequence (in PUBLIC)  that will make him learn that sitting quietly/alternative behavior to barking works better.

Ummm chock collar or a prong collar maybe? I see them on big dogs like ours all the time.

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" But what can you do?  You have to stop the behavior.  You can grab him by the scruff of the neck and give a firm, maybe loud, "NO". Put him in the down position as you do this.  Let him know you mean business, that you are very unsatisfied with this behavior and it is not acceptable. "

Yes I do the exact thing stated above ! Be he just ignores me.  I'd have to look liek i was abusing him, to get through to him,Even if I'm not really.  But to outsiders, it will look like that. I had to pin him down this morning and mimmic a dog biting him. Because he went nuts over the cats walking past his food while he was eating. As wonderful as he is with kids, and people, He is turning vicious toward other animals, and thats my personal opinion. It's gotten worse. I started reading two of Cesar M.'s books . But I beleive I need proffessional one on one training at this point. I might have to quite my work at home job ,just to put more time into him even if it means nto having $ (My DH supports us otherwise) . I have always been the "disciplinarian with the dogs and kids (My Dh is the easygoing ladi back one) . If i did things the way my DH did them, our dog would be not be handlable,in my opnion .He doesn't have the expereince ,like I  do with dogs in general. So it's up to me to work with Buddy on his issues. You have no idea how much time i already put into this dog. After alll the money I've already spent too. Now he is sick with diarhea and I have to take him to the vet for that. He was due to have his last shots (rabies and whatever else) ,and last worming on Monday. I hope they can't get parvo after already getting vaccinated for it . His poop really stinks and now I am worrying about that too. Wish us luck. thanks for your suggestions.

Stuff has to happen all at once,doesn't it. 

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You know Buddy best!!! Go! get the professional help he and you both need!!! I am all for it!

In fact I called yesterday about obedience classes and prices LOL thinking it would be me and Izzy going to class, but they said she would stay with them for 30 days and they train at there house. Only $10.00 per day! GREAT!!! So I asked well...when do I get trained? cause in my head we both need training. She said it would be the day they bring her home. So I doubt this is what I need right now. I'd love to learn how to teach Izzy to heel for sure but I am having problem with her pulling on the leash. SO we can't progress till that is learnt first. However they teach heeling there and walking on the leash properly. Yes I use the treats! It is the other dogs she is interested in.

I would love a training schedule per age. For ex....At 3 months of age teach this and at 4 months teach that .... I do love a formula/list/schedule, diffidently a schedule. If anyone has one! I love to see it! You know get up time, feed time, teach this @ 10:00 for 10 minuets, teach that @ 2:00, yadda yadda! Sorry I don't know how to put it all into words but something like that.

Please if anyone has one I'd like to look at it! I just work better with time allotments, thingy, schedule. I just don't know how to put one together.

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Well guys (or guys means people to me:)  ) , Buddy doesn't have diarhea :)  . His poops went back to normal. I think it was the new wet food i was giving him. ANYWAY, I am gongi to meet this guy in 30minutes ! https://www.southernk9solutions.com/Home_Page.html  He doesn't do Agility training but I am interested in his obediences courses and then want buddy and I to learn personal protection (not schutshund) . I am REALLY interested in Agility, and know of someone who does it. I will update soon.

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Looks very impressive did he say how much the prices are? I'd like to know

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Well, He said the palce I'm going to now (for dog obedience) isn't really for the caliber of Dog I have, and they mostly specialize in show dog ( handling training,obedience, and agility) . I do paln to stil lgo through them for Agility training, because I know of no one else in my are who even does Agility.
These are the People I'm with right now : http://www.jaemars.com/index.html  .  One of the instructors does own a German Shepherd, but the other people have dogs like Shelties and stuff, to use as their demonstration dogs. My puppy was the hardest to handle in class,and I already noticed I had to do things with him differently. We couldn't just prance around in a circle when practicing leash training. He was so exited over seing the other dogs, he was flipping in different directions all over the place. I was given a choke collar (they do advocate prongs more,but he is kinda small ,so went with the partial choke chain) ,and it made a difference in regards to getting him to MOVE and walk with me. Because when i first started leash training him, he woudl refuse to walk . Now,  he is pulling me real hard and wantnig to go everywhere. Now it's "go,go,go" for him. Basicaly,in my opnion sitting in class while the dogs pittle around at our feet,was just too boring for him :( .

This other guy has his classes out in a huge field. There are less dogs per class. It is $200.00 to do basic Obedience with J Mar-S ,( the peopel I'm using for puppy K right now) but with this other Guy (K-9 solutions) it's 185 for basic O. . And he not only does the Obedience (basic and advanced) ,but Schutzhund,tracking, drug scent tracking,police dogs, Personal Protection,and he likes working specificly with breeds like Dobies,Shepherds,Boxers,etc... They just offer so much more when it comes to if My dog ever advances on. I don't want to have to worry about needing to look else where if he is moving up to another level ,or type of trianing in the future.  I don't know his other prices. But the location is closer too !

I spent two hours talking with him today,and hanging out in another one of their fields, where they train .  Buddy was so wore out, has been napping in his crate since we got home.   

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Girl that sounds perfect for Buddy and if he is bored at the other place he wont learn. So whats the point unless it is you that need the learning...like I do!..That is why I am not looking for Petsmart type of training. I called a lady that will come to my house to train. $100.00 for (3) 1 hour session...sounds great! However she use to train at Petsmart and well she trains that way. I'm looking for more.

Anyone reading ever used Petsmart or the other pet place to get training from?

Good luck with Buddy!

sometimes you can not find just one training center that will provide all your needs in training. I think after reading the different prices and what you get for it we are blessed in this area with classes. I use several depending on what I'm working on, or what LEVEL I'm working at. We have an awesome club that I'm currently applying for membership that charges the public 50. for an 8 week class. They have excellent classes that span from puppy preschool to advanced UD work, all levels of agility,flyball,and rally. With membership I think the classes are half price of course in order to take part in that you have to serve in other areas for them. I don't mind because I already do it. I've also taken several private classes with a Doberman expert who charges 60. for an hour of work. I also have a wonderful trainer that lives close by that only charges me 20. for private classes. It all depends on what I'm working on where I go, different people provide different expertise in different areas . My Schutzhund training is through membership at another club. If one were just looking to do basic obedience then finding a good training center would fit most everyones needs. My dogs are trained in conformation, agility, rally, obedience, tracking and starting Schutzhund training with my 5mo old.

One of the posts mentioned that the dog was bored at class. The puppy kindergarten class that I'm taking with Romeo bores me to tears and the dog if I would let it, but we are their for a purpose and that is socializing and getting the basics down. While everyone may be sitting silently listening to the instructor we are working on something. The distractions in the class provide wonderful training opportunities for us. Romeo is the most distracted independent Doberman I've ever owned and training him is a real challenge. So although the class may be boring it is just what you need to work your distracted dog in. Their are tons of things you can work on with a puppy under these situations. Buddy needs to be trained to walk on a loose leash and not be allowed to pull you, it may be boring but this is a BASIC first step exercise that needs to be mastered before all the advanced work you talk about can be started. This is a fundamental stepping stone and whether you know it or not you are instilling the wrong thing by allowing him to pull you around. I do think it is Wonderful that you are really searching to find a good trainer to help meet your needs and goals. A trained Doberman is a joy to be around an unruly one is hell lol. Good luck with the search looking forward to hearing more about the K-9 solutions if you choose that one.

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Thanks Rnddobermans. I can't stand being pulled by any dog,and won't tolerate it. However Our walks can't be nothing but constant corrections every sdingle second of the way :(  . It has to be fun for him,and he needs to LEARN from them, and I'd hate him to dread our walks.  I'm a very patient person (with children and animals,not grown humans ) and I think until I learn or am told of a method that will enable us both to learn how to walk properly, I will take it slowly. If we have to do this one single step at a time for 2 hours or more a day(not all lumped together)  . If I take one single step, he lunges forward ahead of me. YEs, ONE single step ! So it's back to square one after ONE single step. So I have to keeping starting over . Putting a treat in my mouth doesn't work (even if he's hungry because he won't know if it's there because he doesn't look at my face. My chihuahua is always giving us eye contact(not the alpha kind,but loving , "we both thinking the same thing" kind) Obviously I'm doing something wrong,or haven't found what works for him. My chihuahua looks up at us all the time. We have a strong bond with her and she knows it.
I do praise Buddy whenever he looks at my face. It's hard enough as it is trying to get his attention. Noises and stuff don't work anymore. I think he started the rebellious phase .  He is the least responsive, least intelligent dog I have ever had and that is the truth. I don't care how much people say how smart this breed is. Maybe it's just him,where he came from,his genes,etc.. NOT because he's "just a puppy" .
He is still learning sit, and it's been a month since i got him. I have taught good reliable sits to other dog breeds in less than a week.
I do beleive it's the place I got him from. I woudl calla it a puppy mill, but the dogs looked to be in good health and they had shelter,food and water,it didn't looks dirty like the plces you see on youtube,or on tv.  But he wasn't socialized his 1St 13weeks.
I will be trying a Prong collar too,even if it's just temporarily. But my long term goal is to have him walk at MY pace , without having to use a choke or prong collar .
My husband invited 7 differnt guys over our house lastnight. Buddy has never had guests over besides when my DH's Parents came over last Friday . He did not bark at any of them at all ! He even aproached them happily ,and especially like two of them. I thought it was weird because when he saw my father in law last weekend, he barked&growled at him. He also didn't want to go near him ,although he did sniff him once. Buddy will growl and bark non stop if he even sees the neighbors walk to&from their cars, or are outside their homes. Basicly if he sees them. On daily walks and out in public locations, he rarely barks unless he sees another dog, or a whole group of people walking toward us and I think that is a fear thing . I noticed he really is more choosy with who (or what) he barks at. Like at Petco. He growled at one man(and didn't want to go near him), but not any of the other men or people that were there that day. i also notived he is more rambunctious and rough with people (or animals) that show fear to him. He has never jumped up on my kids. I have a 2 year odl girl I baby sit. He never paid attentino to her before. But Friday when we were outside in the back yard , everytime she saw him run past her,she woudld go "ahh! " thinking he was going to get her. She ran away from him. Then when she did this, he wanted to jump on her and chase her. Of course i stopped him before he could jump on her . I might have to quite my child care work part time, to make more time for Buddy. My youngest is 4, and so He'd stil l be taught how to behave with children ,and be exposed to children. But this way, i wouldn't have to worry about him accidently hurting someone elses child.

your post was loaded I will try and suggest a few things then  go through it later when I have more time. First off what method are you doing to teach Buddy to walk on a loose leash? If you are going to try the prong make sure you know how to use it. I would look to purchase the baby prong type not the big huge prongs you see on most dogs, those are not necessary and give off a bad impression to others. I think I have a picture of Romeo wearing one on his postings with the outside photos I posted that will give you an idea of the size you are looking for.  I wouldn't personally take  your puppy on long walks and instill anymore bad habits of the pulling until you work on his walking on a loose leash. Keep in mind that he is a puppy and needs to explore things. I don't expect my puppies to walk right by my side when we are out on a walk for the fun of it. They are usually on a flexi and they have been taught to walk on a loose leash. They usually go out explore and come back to me. I do obedience showing and I do not want my dog confusing and getting sloppy with the healing by being made to stay by my side in a semi heal position just for a fun walk. I think it expecting to much from your dog. Not that mine cant do it, I just don't think they need to be in work mode all the time.

You had mentioned that when you had the group of men over that he did well with most of them except one. Since he was never properly socialized as a puppy you will need to help him with his confidence. I would set this type of thing up more often and have them come over or when you are out socializing your dog carry treats have the dog sit and have the person offer the treat and pet them. If their is any reaction whether growling or backing up make sure you do not reinforcing it by telling him "oh it's okay sympathetically"  you want a carefree attitude of what are you doing you silly puppy lets go see and I take them right up to whatever it might be and encourage them to touch and sniff the object meanwhile praising for positive steps. If mine have reactions to non living objects then we go right up to it with my treat in hand telling them lets go see you are such a silly puppy. I will put the treat on whatever it might be and have them eat it touching the object. Now even with the adults if I say lets go see they get confident if not happy and run up to the item to be explored.

With the daycare that you run. I wouldn't have the puppy out running free when the kids are out running. Simply because most of these types of dogs have a lot of prey drive meaning it is irresistible not to chase some running high pitched small child. I would have him out on a leash. Because my kids are older and we don't have lots of little kids running around anymore to socialize them to this we take them to parks and watch all kinds of action. I have them sit beside me all the while telling them what a good puppy they are they receive lots of treats on these kind of outings. I make sure we practice in all sorts of situations until I know they are good and comfortable with it. Then I work on a little distance maybe allowing them to go out on a 4 foot leash. I make sure we are playing games the entire time so when I call them to come they run right back over to me. It seems to work well with me. It is very wise not to allow him the opportunity to accidentally harm any of the kids that is why he needs to be under control during these situations. If you don't have the time to do it then don't put him in the situation until he understands what is expected. So if the kids are out playing even if you are out their with them if he is not on a leash don't bother taking him out. As you progress you teach the leave it and have your own kids run past at a distance as you tell him leave it and he looks up at you treat him. So many things that you could be working on it is hard for me to put it in writing, I'm not the best with words or trying to explain things lol.

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I think you do a good job at it though.

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rnddobermans I learn something from every post you make and others here too! Thanks for your efforts to help us to be more knowledgeable and good dog owners!!

Everyone you are so appreciated!!

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hello again :)  . I don't even want to look back at my last post, lol. I know I was probably in tears and feeling very frustrated. So I naturally come here to "vent" .
I do not have a daycare. I do child care Part Time and its just 1-2 kids. I also have my own kids. Buddy doesn't harm kids, I can't emphasize enough how AWESOME he is with children ! The one girl i have right now is afraid of him and almost "freaks out" unnecessarily. He does nothing but run past her or look at her and she almost screams and tries running away. I decided to just keep him gated in the kitchen,in his crate, or in the back yard when she is here. He does fine in the back yard with us. He wanted to jump on her and chase her because of HER behavior . I just followed Cesar M.'s advice (I'm reading two for his books) and (I already knew this too) claimed her as "MY" space . He stopped getting too close to her,but she is provoking him because she doesn't understand she needs to be calm. IF she doesn't get better and I am working with her on teaching her to calm down( because he's not doing anything) until she starts yelling or something. If she doesn't improve, I'm going to let her go. My daughter does the same thing, kind of so if i let her go, he'll still be taught to stay calm when kdis act this way. That's what I tried explaining in my last post.
As for Sat when the guys came over. I said he had a couple of favorites, not that there was one he didn't like. He liked everyone ! He is getting better in public and rarely ever barks at humans, unless we are in our car or right outside the yard, or if at night he thinks he hears something (growls) and that's OK :) (within a  limit)  .

Our walks are improving. I just walk with him more often, and keep trying NEW places while still going back to recently introduced places. I bought the smallest size Prong Collar today . It is for 16lbs even though is 26lbs. Light weight. Walks at my side perfectly. The only thing is his weakness, those darn other dogs ! It's NEW dogs, And after reading an article on this site it clicked . Its NEW Dogs he sees, He either wants to play and is acting bossy and trying to say lets play now!

And He needs to learn he can't choose when he can play with another dog. Because he's living in our world and at Petco when that other lady is walking her dog, she usually doesn't want me approaching her with my dog to "meet&greet"  . I think that is a problem when most people don't understand why he is barking at their dog,and then all they see is a Doberman and then they hurry themselves and their dog past us, makngi him want to chase,etc.. and of course i do see this as a teaching/learning experience for him.but still.... SOME people will let him meet their dog at least so he can see they is nothing to be afraid of. And hes OK afterward.  He's always OK afterward,but I know he has to learn manners,regardless :)

He needs to learn that only GOOD behavior (sitting quietly,etc..) will get what he wants,not barking. I am confident now, with bringing him to his new training classes, and also meeting up with fellow dog owners to walk together, this will give him plenty of weekly practice and enable him to learn (with me teaching him) to behave right, BEFORE he can "go say hi" , OR shut up, and trust me, know he'll be OK, if he's feeling threatened by a particular dog.
The Prong collar showed me that he does have potential,and  I have been getting compliments on how much his behavior has improved every week. By the people I have been associating with. Such as the Dog trainers and we do get compliments on his behavior when we go ut in public places with people only.

I started clicker training. It's the beginning stages. He just learned that click means treat. Now he knows that if he "touches" my hand (bumps with nose, not mouths) as a target,he gets a treat. It's so cool seeing him "touch" when I hold my hand in different places,and he bumps it, for that treat. I got to see his brain working .
Sorry I do not agree with letting him walk "just for fun" and letting him walk ahead of me. I know he is just as happy,if not happier staying by my side and doing what I expect of him. I do not feel I am being too strict. I know it's hard to imagine how goos i really am with him,just from reading about my problems etc..

So what if our walks are just for exercises or "working", it's not like we don't already play in other ways and have fun in other ways. It's not like he doesn't already get to run free and have free play and free exploratory time to himself,and with me,already.

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Have you heard the game MAKE A TREE? Tell the children if your dog chases them and it is scares them to... STOP, Shhh! be quiet and MAKE a TREE.  Legs stiff and arms up and over head like this ^. Turing their backs to the dog. Being still bores dogs and most will just walk away.  That's all I got tonight.

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Thanks Izzys mom(or dad).
They are nto strong enough to not be knocked down. Actually my kids were never bothered by him. After the littte girl freaked out on him, it (as I unfortunatley suspected it would) taught&reinforced a new thing, jumping on kids . I am working on that fine. It's not hard .
He is getting better with the issues I first brought up in this thread. I ust keep taking him palces,and keep walking him,etc.. Just walking together and getting him more tired has helped. I wasn't walking him far enough.  Thanks everyone.

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Hi I'm Judy Izzy's Mom. Well happy hallelujah!!! Glad it is working for you both!!!

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Yes, the only problem that bothers me is the aggression toward other dogs when we go to Pet co/Pet smart. It's usually only those places. He is fine at Doggy Day Care and going on walks, walking past other dogs in their own yards behind fences barking at us . But there is something about when he is on a leash and he sees another dog on a leash. What comforts me (just a tiny bit) is knowing that according to AKC standards, dog aggression is allowed because of the temperament of this breed. But I don't want to allow this after a certain extent. The other Dog owners who obviously don't know about dog behavior , are the ones with the other dogs and pre-judge him the wrong way. I was at Pet co and he started lunging in their direction (at one lady 25ft away in the parking lot)barking and growling. It sounded bad, but he was exited, NOT being vicious.  If you saw him,you'd see he just needs to learn manners,it's not him being 'mean". The lady commented out loud, "OOOH, we have a little Tyrant ", That made me mad and she would be so ignorant and rude to say such a thing, but I just ignored her and kept walking ,and Buddy stopped after they were out of his view and we were almost in the doors. He did it again on the way out the doors,when a lady with a German Shepherd was approaching. So as part of his training (how better to learn,than in REAL LIFE) , I put him in a sit, facing me(away from them) and told him no to his growling.
If we had walked past them, he would have lunged toward them (of course I'd stop him,and correct him) but it would scare them more. So he was sitting and growling when they came through the door,and the lady refused to go inside,and said I'll let you go first. I said No thanks, he's training . But did move out of the way though,because I was actually in front of the groomers door,and didn't realize that's where they were headed. If people knew about dog behavior and the fact that we need to WORK&TRAIN our dogs, they'd be more patient with other people.

If I did what everyone ELSE wanted me to do,and kept him away from other dogs, then he'd never learn how to properly act ! So I am frustrated with the situation that it is hard to get him trained when there are not many people who are patient or care enough about the well being of all dogs and just want ot go on their merry way ,and not be "inconvenienced" by people like me who are just trying to teach my dog to be a better behaved boy. I know it's due to their fears and innocent ignorance. But I don't allow him to get close to other dogs in a place like that anyway  (Pet co ) . And he is NOT people aggressive. He loves people very very much.

So he's no threat to people,and hes just a puppy ! But I think because of his pointed ears and Black&Rust Doberman breed, he looks scary when growling and well, he just scares people. I got him to be scary looking to deter bad guys.  Or if anyone I didn't know tried coming into my yard. But he seems to scare regular people instead. And I want to make this breed look good,not bad. Actually, when we're not at the pet store (ice cream shop,etc..Park)  He gets complimented on how "sweet" he is and what a "good" dog/puppy he is and I've done a good job with him. Maybe I did it wrong,but I am trying. But no one in my area (trainers or anybody) has been able to tell me what to do ,to correct this . I wasn't able to sign up for the Obedience class due to a loss in finances. The trainers seemed to concentrate more on the basic stuff anyway, like how to teach them sit,etc..(I know all that) instead of focusing on fixing his problems.
Sorry so long ! Just venting again :)

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I think i just figured out the main cause of Buddies problem with other dogs ! : - ( I am feeling really down right now.
I wanted a Pit Bull,but specifically chose NOT to get one because i did not want the Dog aggression. I thought if I bought a Doberman that was with it's litter mates and Pack for 12 weeks, he would be dog socialized.
Then it wasn't until alter that I learned dog socializing is other dogs,not just his own pack.
Now I am reading this Article that shed some light into the situation. Judy&Izzy had posted a thread in another section. Some one offered up a link with information . I clicked on the Articles,and started reading the "Super pup" PDF .

Sadly I came across this info : Do Not
Remove from litter mates.
Again, the puppy is learning to separate people and dogs. He is learning he is a canine, and he is learning to get along with other dogs (learning greeting patterns, submissive and dominant gestures, and all important play gestures). If he is separated from litter mates during this period, he will show less interest in dog activities when he is grown, and will probably pick fights with every strange dog he meets. If removed from the litter at the beginning of this period, he is usually very aggressive as an adult, especially if human attention replaces the dog attention. He will be confused over his identity, and become so “people oriented” that even his sexual desires will be expressed toward humans instead of canines. He will be very difficult to breed to another canine as an adult.
"Do Not
Remove from the litter
If removed from the litter the pup will lose his ability for socially adjusting to dogs, and will probably remain as maladjusted “people” dog for the rest of his life. "
And this info:
"Do Not
Remove from litter mates.
Again, the puppy is learning to separate people and dogs. He is learning he is a canine, and he is learning to get along with other dogs (learning greeting patterns, submissive and dominant gestures, and all important play gestures). If he is separated from litter mates during this period, he will show less interest in dog activities when he is grown, and will probably pick fights with every strange dog he meets. If removed from the litter at the beginning of this period, he is usually very aggressive as an adult, especially if human attention replaces the dog attention. He will be confused over his identity, and become so “people oriented” that even his sexual desires will be expressed to wards humans instead of canines. He will be very difficult to breed to another canine as an adult. "

With Dogs Buddy already knows, he is OK, IF he likes them. I think he is actually picking fights with other dogs,and not just exited like i thought. He will be 5 months on June 11TH. I wish i could afford personal one on one training. And it makes me sad if this is true. Because the breeder told me,that because he was the runt, he had to be formula fed,and taken from his mother at one point,and then put back with the litter later on. When he was littler, he was even staying at someone elses house after he got his ears cropped. I don't know exactly at what age,I think it was newborn, as far as the seperating from litter&being bottlefed but not sure. It certainly made him exceptionally friendly with humans. No wonder he was sitting in the back of the others when we went to go look at them.  He was not playing with the other puppies either,but it didn't occur to me that could have been something wrong. 

I really wanted a DOG FRIENDLY Doberman. And I know it's partly my fault for buying from a breeder who was not knowledgeable enough to help me pick a puppy based on my wants/needs. I TOLD him I wanted a Doberman that was not dog aggressive,and I told him what else i wanted,but he kept saying you can't predict how they'll turn out,and you can't choose a puppy based on how they act at time of purchase, because they don't know me and so they all will act shy,and will change after bringing them home.
It wasn't until after I did more research t(and dealing with him on a issue i had after the purchase) hat I realized this guy doesn't really care about his dogs.

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Just great....

Just read this :

" Isolate from humans
Tests proved that a puppy who is isolated from humans during this period remains maladjusted for life. They also proved to be incapable of becoming companions to humans as well as incapable of training. Your daily training sessions will provide ample contact with humans—but this can create what is known as a single-person socialization—a dog who accepts one person, but is
page 10
terrified or aggressive to other people. For this reason, again the importance of introducing him to other people is stressed.  "

These Dogs and Puppies were kept in multiple out door Pens for however long,until they were purchased. It didn't bother me,because i felt they would be more dog socialized. I know that is not true now. But this man certainly didn't have enough attention to give his dogs .After all ,there had to be at least 30 or 40 dogs total. ( 20 were variousmothers with their litters). Looks liek the Odds are against me/Buddy when it comes to creating the Dog I want, without a LOT of hard work & time, more than normal I mean.

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I disagree. He may have had a rough start, but you yourself pointed out he does not have a problem with humans, and not even other dogs except at certain situations. It may be that your work has corrected his behavior at the dog park and and a doggy day care, but you still have work to do when in a building or shop.

Your reaction to him is absolutely correct. You put him in a sit and ignore the other people and dogs. That distracts him from them and teaches him that they are of no importance, because if you ignore them, he will too. It sounds to me like you have come a long way, but still have a little more work to do. There is no magic tool to make a dog a very sociable animal in public, just work.

I would make more trips to PetCo and such, and work with him each time. Although the employees might think at first it's a little strange if you make a daily visit, once they realize you are working to make him sociable in that setting, they will understand. Mine have never been in one (PetSmart is our local one) as it is 20 miles and I usually go in when I going to other stores as well. Wal-Mart and Home Depot are not as welcoming of pets, especially of Dobies.

I will have to tell you of a funny story about my first Dobe (Windy - my avatar). One evening, I was driving past a mall with Windy in the car, and decided to stop at the pet store. I left her in the car and went into the pet store to pick out a collar. I was unsure what size she needed and asked the clerk if I could bring the wrong on right back since the dog was in the car. He told me to bring her in, and I was surprised, but then they were just inside the main entrance of the mall. So I went out to get her, had her on a leash and was walking her past a large cage with kittens. They started squealing and Windy was startled and backed out of her collar and started running down the main concourse of the mall. There were a lot of people there and it was like the parting of the red sea.

She then realized that she was in a strange area and turned around so I was able to catch her, put the collar back on, went to the pet store got her new collar and left. Quickly.

Now you know why the pet stores attached to malls all have outside doors now. (This was in 1982). BTW - I have never take a Dobe into a mall since either.

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You really can't fault someone for commenting that your dog was acting like a tyrant when he was acting like a tyrant.  I think you're wrong in trying to say that your growling dog was not being aggressive, only excited.  The people are not pre-judging him.  They ARE judging what is presented to them.  I kind of think you're caught between knowing you have a problem and making excuses for him. 

It's also not other people's job to help you train your dog when they're just trying to shop at the pet store.  I mean, I realize what you're trying to do.  But perhaps you are moving too quickly and perhaps you are exposing him to triggers without doing any desensitizing at a distance first.  Usually, issues like these would be worked on with a trainer or a behaviourist that can see the situation firsthand and develop a training plan for you.  He should also be in controlled training situations, which is not what is happening at the pet store where you have no control what is going on around you.  Instead, you're taking advice from all over and attempting to do it yourself when perhaps you don't really know what to do.  I think you probably need to do some distance work before just inserting him into situations where you know he has problems.  The time for that should come later.  If he's lungeing at people 25 feet away in a parking lot, then maybe you start working on this issue 50 feet away or however many feet away it takes to not elicit that reaction.  You don't just march into the jungle in a war.  You do some recon work, you know? 

I'm sorry about your finances, but I do feel that this is becoming a priority, and you need professional help with Buddy.

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Gengate,thank you for your honest reply. I think I did already admit in my last post that I realize maybe it's not just "exitement" and the wrong kind of aggression. You were just rubbing that in, ; ) /  I agree, we should start in the parking Lot first,and work are way into the store, slowly as he desensitises. it jsut didn't accur to me,to try in the parkinglot. because i wasn't even gonig to the Petco for training , just training him , since we happend to be there  already to shop for needed things.  I liek to teach thigns wherever I go. Like with my children, every place we go is a learning experience (even if they don't know it) and a way to reinforce their own good manners and learn how to better behave. No time like the present. But it makes sense to start in the parking lot first.

I don't know how to act like I'm ignoring something if we're not "going" anywhere(to walk past it to show I dont care). Like if we're just standing next to my car, KWIM ? Just ignore them,and let him bark, and he'll eventually see "hmm,it doesn't bother HER" , I am afraid if I even let him act that way, I'm allowing it. And by allowing it, I might be giving him the alpha status or saying "it's ok to be the boss and bark when you want" .

I know this is a top priority, but if I can't hire someone to help me for the next couple weeks, then I can't.  There are not many true experts in my area. The one guy I am interested in using, might not be willing to do personal one on one training in specific areas. I guess I should ask and find out ; ) ,maybe I'll be surprized.

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"You really can't fault someone for commenting that your dog was acting like a tyrant when he was acting like a tyrant."

I disagree.  That's like if my usually well behaved child who is not a brat, throws a tantrum in public. Then some one says "Oh looky,looky, a little brat" ,turns theri nose up and gets all bothered by it instead fo having a good attitude and brushing it off as child behavior  .  Yes, I'd say said child was "acting bratty" , but it didn't mean he "WAS a brat"  or that the person had a right to make a rude comment. Maybe in that instant the mother has done all she could. If the other person who caleld her kid a brat, thought she knew better, (after all she must have to have the nerve to judge and spout out), she could have offered up a good suggestion,instead of being rude. It's putting a label on him, describing him as a whole. As a whole, NO he is not a tyrant.

I do not expect or make other people train my dog(at the stores,strangers,etc..). I was saying that if I am trying to train him, they need to not expect me to go else where, if i am NOT hurting them in any way. You could then say "Oh but his barking is a disruption" . Dogs bark ,and puppies need to learn manners. They need to learn how to act in many places,not just at home.

As for Petco, We'll start in the parking lot, and go from there. but if someone doesn't like it, too bad. Thanks for suggesting that, It didn't even accur to me.

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The problem with the internet is that we can't see the behaviours you're describing and we don't know if you're interpreting/describing them appropriately or not.  We also usually don't know the experience level of the person we're talking to and whether their timing is good or not, etc for when it comes to correcting poor behaviour (or praising good behaviour).  We don't know if his issues are coming from his background (probably some are) or whether they're coming from you being ineffective in certain training situations, and I don't mean that as insulting.  It's just true that some people have incredibly poor timing when it comes to praise and correction, some don't listen, some just misunderstand, etc.  I see it all at the training classes that I attend.  I'm offering it as a possibility of what may be happening, not as an insult.  You're trying, and I give you props for that, but as I said, this may be a situation over your head for which you need outside help.  Some dogs are more difficult than others for various reasons, any of which might be going on here. 

I am trying to be honest with you, and I do find that on the one hand you see you have a problem but otoh, you do make excuses for it.  Your dog was being a tyrant when someone commented on it.  As I said before, that's all they have to go on if that's all they see.  If the normally well behaved child has a tantrum in public, then yes, they are being a brat in that instance.  It doesn't mean they always are or always will be.  I'm not rubbing anything in, just calling it as I see it.

I think that dogs who are taken to stores should be trained and well behaved already, rather than expecting to do the training there.  That's the point of training in controlled environments.  You get it under control there first and then add distractions bit by bit.  For instance, at two of the places where I train, we train inside the buildings first wehre it is controlled.  Once the dogs are comfortable with that, then we move outdoors where we have new distractions.  We work in that environment for a few weeks.  Sometimes we then move to a local park, etc.  Thre MUST be foundation work done before you just go off to stores or the like. 

You should keep in mind that if people bring unruly dogs to stores, we may ALL lose that privilege.  You really can't compare teaching children to training dogs when you can reason with a child.  Although there may be some similarities, that's a huge difference.