What To Look For In Agility/Obediance Classes

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DobyZOE's picture
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So, I recently discovered that in order to get a breeder's license, you dog (my dobe) needs to be enrolled in a sport.  I figured the best place to start would be with agility/obediance classes.  I found a place in my area, but I'm not sure how to register it as reputable.  What are some things I can ask when I first phone?

Thanks, DobyZOE

Okay so forgive me for this answer ahead of time...but what makes you ask for a reputable place to train your dog when you need to prove yourself and your dog reputable to breed to begin with? What makes your dog worthy to be bred or you a breeder in first place is the first question to ask? Is it her long line of champions in the pedigree, is it her fantastic conformation, her impeccable health testing results, is it that you have a fantastic mentor that is guiding you through this experience? Maybe you are from a different country where things are all together different but just a few questions to ponder before receiving a breeding license. Pets are a dime a dozen and good homes are few and far between, the shelters and streets are full of unwanted throw away pets as the general public sees them.

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rnddobermans, you obviously have experience in this area.  I would like advice from experienced pet owners/breeders and I think that's what I can find on this site.  I believe that I have an exceptional doberman and would like to tap into that through at-home training that I can give her, as well as, through a professional trainer.  You have made clear and knowledgable statements about what steps I can take to become a reputable owner/breeder with my doberman.  However, the tone of your questions is somewhat negative.  I am here to learn and put that knowledge to good use for my pet family.  I am not just taking in animals off the street, however, I have made some rescues, but not with Zoe.  I looked long and hard for someone trustworthy to help me bring a pedigree doberman into my family.  I am looking to add to Zoe's profile and my own to become a reputable breeder.  I am a novice in the breeding arena and I am looking for respectable information from experienced owners and breeders. 

 Is it her long line of champions in the pedigree, is it her fantastic conformation, her impeccable health testing results, is it that you have a fantastic mentor that is guiding you through this experience?

Zoe is AKC registered and I have a family tree of her ancestors, stating Zoe's certified pedrigree compiled from official Stud Book records. 

As conformation goes for Doberman's, according to this site:http://www.uniteddobermanclub.com/breed/mod_akc_standard.html

I believe that Zoe fits the standards, however, I do not have exact measurments to determine full conformation.  This is something that can be determined and thank you for pointing that out.

Health testing results: She has been vaccinated to the max. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the health testing can be done by a veterinarian and this is something that I will need to do for Zoe, as well.

I do not have a fantastic mentor, which is another reason why I am researching on this site and others as well.  I have also done some reading about dobermans.  My mentoring is mostly personal and what I learn through research.  I am hoping that finding a trainer can aid in my mentoring.

Thank you for your input, rnddobermans, and I hope that in the future I can learn from you and others on this site.

DobyZOE

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I would have her conformation looked at by a skilled eye, and I would also like you said get involved in something that proves your dogs breed worthiness.  As far as akc registered, unfortunately that doesn't mean anything about quality whatsoever without knowing the dogs in the pedigree.  AKC registered means nothing more than the dog is not a mix, but it doesn't have anything to do with quality.  So you have to look at the dogs in the pedigree.  The things you need to know is how many champions are there in the lines?  How far back are they?  Are they recent, is there just a few, is there alot of them?  What are the common genetic defects in the line?  What are the causes of death, and how long did the dogs live?  What do you know about the puppies the dogs in the pedigree have produced?  What is the longevity in these puppies?  These are SOME of the things that reputable breeders can tell you about their chosen pedigrees.

As far as health testing, vaccinating and whatnot is not realy health testing.  You would want to do things like heart testing, vwd, dcm, etc.  You want to do all of the testing for the big things that affect dobermans, and ideally, you would have these testing results for the parents and grandparents as well.

Becoming a reputable breeder is not quite as simply as having a "nice" dog and finding a mate, it's alot more than that.  So I would continue to do your research, and learn what makes a reputable breeder reputable.  But basically, everything is proven.  Your dog looks nice, you can enter him in shows, and get the results from people that are trained to determine how your dog fits the standard.  He is good in working sports?  Get some titles on him.  These are a few of the things that separate the good from the bad breeders, and those looking to improve the breed, vs. turn a quick buck.  It's quite expensive to be an ethical, reputable breeder.

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KevinK, thanks for the information.  It is a lot of information to take in, but I am very interested to learn all I can before even beginning to breed. 

I found the site UDC (United Doberman Club) and you are saying to have the conformation looked at by a skilled eye...is this a place, once a member, to skillfully get Zoe conformed?

Also, would I need to contact the AKC to find out exact pedrigee, championship, genetics, causes of deaths, longevity of the dogs and their pups, litters, etc.?

For the health testing, I found out that hip x-rays, thyroid, eyes, VWD and cardiac are the main things to have checked.  I am able to contact the breeder where I got Zoe to give me the testing information from her parents and grandparents.

I would like to register Zoe with the UDC to get her some titles.  I think signing her up for obediance/agility training classes would also be a good place to start, plus it will give me some experience in the area.  I would really like to know all there is about the doberman breed and other breeds as well to become a reputable breeder, to improve the breed and let other families share in the joy of owning a doberman.

Thanks again, DobyZOE

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did you get your dog with full registration?  Do you have a copy of the pedigree you can post?  I'ts a great idea to have all of your info set up and understood before you start doing something like this, and make sure you know what you're getting into.  Example, I don't care what titles go on this particular dog, if the rest of the pedigree is weak, there's no chance I'm going to spend money on an otherwise unproven pedigree.   So that's something to think about as well.  If you are serious about becoming a good breeder, you may have to accept the fact that zoe is not the right foundation bitch.  Time will tell on that, so keep researching.  But typically, show and working prospects are send home to owners that have experience, and plan on showing/working.

I don't want you to take any of this in a negative way. I think it is fantastic that you are interested in getting involved in the breed, and starting in obedience/rally/agility...etc... is a great way to have fun while you are learning.

However, the chances that you have a puppy that should be bred is very slim. She is a dog you should love and learn with, but most likely not breed. You need to learn a ton before entering the breeding arena if you have any hope of being considered reputable. Please trust me that good breeders don't start at the bottom and move up to reputable. You will only have one opportunity to make a good impression and people in this breed have very long memories.  

I can tell you that I had Dobermans for about 15 years before ever breeding a litter and I did so with a mentor that has been producing breed champions for over 30 years. I did not breed my first bitch and I didn't breed my second either. I did love them and I put multiple back end titles on the second one - but realized that they were not destined to be my foundation bitch, but they were the ones I learned so much with.  Breeding should never be a beginner activity if you truly love the breed.  The people who breed their pets don't love the breed at all and do it no favors. 

 

 

 

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Very nicely put, Fitzmar.

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KevinK, I don't have a copy of the pedigree to post...is it possible to get the information online (Zoe is only registered through AKC) the pedrigee report I received is from AKC.  I remember our breeder stating that her sire was in shows.  If I contact her, I will be able to get more information.  I want to get everything in line before I start breeding.  We don't have a male doberman yet and probably won't until the holidays and we (my husband and I) would like to get the male as a puppy and raise it at home; this way he will be introduced to Zoe as a young pup.  I'm guessing once I look more into her pedrigee information, I will find out is she is the "right foundation bitch".

Also, I would like to become educated about the vocabulary used among breeders, long time owners and showers.  I am not familiar with "right foundation bitch", hence, the reason I put it in quotations.

Thanks.

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Fitzmar, I completely understand where you are coming from.  I am a beginner on understanding the breed of the doberman.  They are beautiful, intelligent and amazing creatures.  I have learned a lot just from raising Zoe, and I am really looking forward to gaining more intelligence about the breed, showing and breeding. 

How will I know if Zoe is right to be bred? Are you a breeder/shower because what I know of you through your posts and pet profiles, I feel that I could learn a great deal from you. 

It was always a dream of mine to become a veterinarian, unfortunately, it was not my destiny while in college.  However, it's a big dream of my husbands to become a doberman breeder and I am mixing my love for animals with his dream of creating life with dobermans.  We are not looking at this as a short term or money making project.  We are starting from the ground, up, although, my husband has had experience with dobermans prior to Zoe.  I became interested in the breed first from him and his true passion for the breed.

Please understand that I want to try to get Zoe to the level where we are both confident in breeding her.  I want to add to the breed and other families that would love to open their homes to a doberman. If you could share any of the information you have about the steps to take to become a breeder, I would be greatful.  It would also help me get a better picture of the challenges that I will encounter while trying.

Thank you, DobyZOE

DobyZOE's picture
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Hi DJ's Dad,

What's your experience with dobermans? I would love to know!

Thanks, DobyZOE

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I think you have to understand that zoe may not be the girl to start your breeding program, is what it comes down to.  And if you are going to breed, don't get a male, and breed that way.  You want to select suitable mates that for whatever reason are going to improve upon the breed, not breed for convenience, because you have 2 dogs.  Ethical, reputable breeders almost never have both dogs on site, its' quite unusual.  They usually have the dam, (girl) and then look for an appropriate sire (guy) for her.  It's a LOT more involved than buying a male, and slapping them 2 together, that would be a tremendous mistake, and it's not something I would recommend.  Many travel great distances, or have semen shipped, and have it done that way as well.

If you have breeding rights from your breeder, you can almost 100% assume that zoe should not be bred.  Good breeders never give full registration to in-experienced breeders, it's not something that they take very lightly at all.  Pet dogs from good breeders will come with a limited registration, meaning the dog can not be bred, and it's pup's can not be registered.

To do things ethically, here's a starting checkpoint.

1)  Determining why your dog should be bred.  What titles does she have?  How is her confirmation?  Temperement?  Drives?  What kind of pups will she produce?  What kind of a mate will help bring out her traits, and help minimize any negatives?

2) You NEED to know your pedigree inside out, otherwise you can't call yourself an ethical breeder.  You need to know longevity, =(how long they live) common causes of death, all health issues, etc.  Yoru dog may be great, but suppose there's an average lifespan of 4 years before heart failure in your pedigree...  That is not the kind of genes you should be passing down.

3) Make sure you have full registration

4) Make sure you have the time and money to devote to a litter of puppies.  A pregnant bitch, and a bunch of pups are going to be a tremendous handful, and the vet work is very expensive.  Not to mention food, toys, 1 on 1 time, etc.

5) You need to make yourself aware of any potential health problems to look out for, as well as be able to explain, in great detail, to those that don't understand them.  

6) You need to know of any of these health defects that are present in your lines.  NO lines are free of genetic defects, not one, anywere, from any breeder.  So, this needs to be taken into account when you are looking for a stud, because you are not going to be breeding the dogs that you own.  This is a huge mistake for many reasons, but please, don't buy a male and start breeding your dogs.

 

This is just a few of the things I thought of, it gets a lot more detailed than this.  Like fitzmar said, ethical breeders come about after many years with the breed, being involved in showing, working sports, and having loads of general dog knowledge, as well as loads of specific breed knowledge.  You need to know the breed inside out, front to back.  To put it simply, ethically breeding dogs involves more than most people are willing to do, so I would start looking into all of these things and seeing how you feel about it.  Maybe you can start going to some shows, metting the breeders, meeting the judges, make a few friends, and find out exactly what's involved that way.  You will need a good amount of money set aside, in the event the mother or one of the pups needs some emergency vet care of something, or for when something comes up.

It's alot to do, but help is there if you choose to do things right!

Becoming an ethical reputable breeder is not something you learn on an internet forum - it is something you learn from years working with the breed and reputable mentors that you meet along the way. 

You can learn the lingo, but if you don't understand it, it won't mean anything.  I personally am not going to educate you on the lingo so that you can start pumping out puppies from the dogs you happen to have.... and sound like you even 1/2 way know what you are talking about.

I can't reiterate enough that becoming a good breeder is NOT a beginner activity - a beginner activity is having fun with the dogs that you have in performance activities and learning as you go over a period of YEARS and not just one or two or even three years..... many years!!

If your husband is dreaming of producing nice Dobermans and having any respect in the dog world... he will be deeply disappointed to learn that his plan is hugely flawed - unless he is happy being known as one of the dreaded "bybers" - because if that is the road you take, people like me will have nothing to do with you. I LOVE this breed and judge people harshly for treating it like a commodity that it is their God given right to do with as they wish.

If you really want to do it right, spay your girl and have fun with her. Spend the next few years doing all that you can (except breeding) with her and meeting good Dobe people who can guide you in your journey. 

If you want to know more about your girl, you can order a 5 generation pedigree from the AKC, but they can't give you any information about the health background of those dogs. There is a way to look for AKC titles on the AKC website.  What is her registered name and what are her parents registered names - that is where you start.

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Thanks to you, KevinK and Fitzmar.  You have definitely given some information that I can start looking into.  Past this point, I don't think there is really much else to talk about, since we all hold our own opinions.  Thank you.

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I am not nor have I been a breeder of any dog nor do I want to be, but I do have one question after reading this thread with great interest:

When you bought Zoe did you specify that you were intending on showing her?? Did you request a potential show/title contender when you chose your puppy???

And after reading these posts it seems that you are excited about breeding but so excited that you might overlook the great advice here - that you need to spend the next 5-10 years STUDYING the breed and working your dog, getting to know those in the field of show etc. before ever considering breeding, and once you begin studying pedigrees, understanding pedigrees and what qualifies as a foundation bitch and realizing what the breeders here are saying about health issues and conformation etc. you may realize that you prefer to have a foundation bitch from a different line and search for a puppy from that line etc. having a great looking dog is not a reason to breed, there are lots of great looking dogs here in the forum but they are not breeding quality. And as was mentioned you can have a great conformation dog that has crappy health lines - what will you do?? the reputable thing is to not breed that dog even though conformation is great, breeders better the breed and bad health is not something to perpetuate

I am glad you are interested in learning and are excited but don't let that push you into doing a dis-service to the breed or as was mentioned here, creating a situation where reputable breeders will not even speak to you, you need them so don't ignore their warnings and advice. If you are just learning about the breed it's definitely not the time to add breeding to that mix. Learn, study and learn some more and visit the shows and meet the breeders etc. The fact that when health testing was mentioned you stated that all vaccines were up to date, shows how new you are to this whole project. Health testing should immediately bring to your mind a long list of the health issues and what they mean and how they affect the dog and longevity, vaccines are not related to health testing in the sense of what is meant by "health testing".......and breeding while learning will definitely put you in the byb category.

Working in rescue this whole thing worries me that's why I posted; I do see a very proud and happy dober parent who wants to be involved in the breed but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to breed....... if your husband wants to do this what does he know of the health issues? does he understand how to read and comprehend the pedigrees?? does he know breeders? has he been to shows and talked to breeders? what makes him want to do this??? start there - WHY do you both want to do this - is it to better the breed? or to enjoy the breed? if it's to enjoy the doberman there are so many more ways to do that, that are very rewarding without adding to the list of puppies who need homes........

If you are located in the USA then to evaluate your dogs conformation you should go to some local AKC shows and watch the breed ring. Spend some time and find a mentor to help you. Could be wrong but I thought I saw somewhere on the DPCA website an area for new people looking for mentors. The UDC club (which I do belong to) is not the best to determine if your dog is conformationally correct. It is more a club that concentrates on the working aspect of the dog. Dogs that are able to get a UDC CH may NEVER be able to achieve an AKC CH. not to mention the qualifications are easier to achieve with UDC then AKC.

I noticed in your previous posts that you were planning on getting a male puppy around the holidays. This is another area that many respectable breeders and future puppy buyers will really look down on you for, IF your plan is to buy a male to breed to your female. Good breeders go to great lengths to search for the perfect mate for their females. It is often frowned upon to for beginners to start out breeding their male and female together just to produce a litter of puppies. This is a big sign of producing puppies to make a quick buck and a good sign of a byb.

As I said in my original post the world is overwhelmed with tons of unwanted BYB dogs that end up in the streets and shelters across the nation. Pets are a dime a dozen and most people see them as throw aways once times get tough. If you want to breed and do it right then set yourself apart from all the rest of the BYB in the nation. Spend some time studying and researching the breed. Not every dog needs to be bred just to produce puppies so "other families can share in the joy of owning a doberman"

I would also like to make a small comment on the costs of producing a litter and use my last litter as an example. It is terribly expensive to do it RIGHT and 2.5 years after my last litter Im still paying for it! Now mind you my dogs are health tested, proven in different working areas and come from the top lines in the USA. I had a waiting list for over a year for these puppies and this was not my first litter. Everything that could go wrong did and the cost was astronomical! I was in and out of the emergency vet's office and ended up with a emergency C-section and eventually one puppy that we put down within the first week and paid for an autopsy. That did not end the pain. We had things happen with this litter that were literally unexplainable within the veterinarian community including WSU who we worked closely with. All I am saying is when things go wrong they can go terribly wrong and it is not all profit like so many new people think it is going to be. On the DPCA website they have a chart somewhere that goes into the costs of producing a litter. I think you may find some very useful info if you spend some time researching their site. I also love Glengates site on finding a breeder and find it to be one the most complete I've seen. http://glengate.webs.com/buyingguide.htm

Have fun with your dog and enjoy her and all the many different activities you can do with her.

 

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Not to hijack the thread - just wanted to say sorry to hear about the horrific turn of events with your litter this last time RND, I know you say you lost one so I hope everyone else is on the mend now?

I'm reminded of a phrase.... you can only educate people who are open to learning..... I don't think that the OP and her husband are open to learning - they seem to just want to learn how to be a byber at this point. I can only hope that they will open their eyes and change their mind. I won't hold my breath, and I won't waste any more time trying to educate them. If there is one thing I've learned in my 10+ years on the Doberman forums is that you have to cut your losses and concentrate on the people who truly love the breed and want to be a benefit to them. Those people are worth my time and effort - no matter if their long term goal is to be a really good pet home or a top notch breeder - or anything inbetween.

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Thank you to rnddobermans for the link, there is a lot of good information to read and research further.

Thank you to talisin for sharing some very important questions.  I will definitely consider those while continuing to research the breed.

Fitzmar, I can only assume that the "OP and her husband" that you are referring to are myself and my husband.  I can't make it anymore clear that I am here to learn.  I understand that you have your opinions and obvious judgements, but I'm not here to be judged.  Neither is this forum available to be judged; it is a means to gain insight and information about the doberman breed and that is exactly what I'm doing. And I'm no loss to you, as seeing that I was never yours to lose in the first place.  I do truly love the breed and my Zoe and it's a shame that people like you are only here to discourage those that are starting out.  It's a known fact that everyone starts somewhere and you, too, were once novice to raising/showing/breeding, etc dobermans and I don't think it would kill you to "open your eyes" and "change your mind" about someone who wants to learn.  It's a darn shame that you put all your judgements into one basket and lump all those who are truly interested in educating themselves on showing and breeding dobermans into those bybers who are just looking to make a quick buck.  You don't know me and it's safe to say that you never will.

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There's no problem with educating, and learning, but there's still a way to do it and a way not to do it.  Like I said above, if you choose to do things the right way, there will be no shortage of help.

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It is my choice to have a way and I want to make well-educated choices, which is my entire reasoning behind my interest in comprehensive research and learning prior to making any final decisions.  I choose to do what's best for my family and myself, however, what I think is best is not always best for everyone.  I understand that even if I choose to breed Zoe, it may not be what's best for her, which would completely influence my decision.  I would then choose to not breed Zoe. 

What I want now is to try.  If I don't try, I will never know what could have been.  I understand the risks and I also understand how to minimize risks by taking proper precautions (like first getting Zoe health tested because now I know what it all entails).  Prior to this discussion, I didn't know, but now I do thanks to all of you providing a path of information to follow.

None of you gave me answers; but, you did give guidance, which is all I'm seeking.  I'm not jumping into breeding tomorrow, but I am giving myself, my husband and Zoe a chance to learn and try once we accomplish all that we need to to gain the confidence in breeding.

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Fitzmar, I was rather quick to say I'm hopeful that we will never know each other.  It's possible with your years of experience with this breed that I could learn some things from you.  I'm not asking you to be my teacher or my mentor, but I am asking that you give me a chance...because I'm not going anywhere, except maybe a show where you might be.  Then, you actually may get to know me.

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I may be making a broad assumption here but I think that the issue with the breeding of Zoe is that you haven't taken the time to spend the years visiting show rings and breeders to find out what exactly is "bettering the breed" it takes years of study and learning the pedigrees to know how and where to start "bettering the breed" and that will most likely not fall into the time frame of breeding Zoe she will be too old and should have been spayed by then. That to me is the issue with breeding Zoe, to you she may seem like the best dog in the world but is she really the best dog to breed according to the standards and health issues that face this breed nowadays?? and the only way to know that is to spend every waking minute studying the breed and visiting the shows which means traveling since local shows are just that, local......yes everyone starts somewhere but the top notch breeders most likely started out studying ONLY, learning the breed, having numerous dobermans and observing the differences in each dog, learning from the show ring by watching, listening and conversing with those in attendence, studying and researching ALL the health issues and being able to talk about those health issues as if they have a degree in veterinary medicine on them; they did not start out by getting a great looking dog and learning a bit here and there and then breeding; they spent many years of their life researching before ever breeding a dog; that's why they are so passionate about not jumping in with this first dog Zoe, you don't know enough to do this to her and she will not be of age to breed by the time you have gotten enough information to breed properly. They are encouraging you as am I to enjoy Zoe to the fullest WHILE you research, study, and learn everything there is to know about dobermans, but you can't learn enough fast enough to breed Zoe..... That's how I see it.

keep asking questions and keep learning but try to see that it takes YEARS not just A year and it takes 100's of shows and breeders and talks with veterinarians maybe consult with doberman specific health professionals etc. this is not an overnight project or a one or two year project you have decided to undertake, but if you take the time to invest in the years of preparation then when you do decide to breed you will have all that support you are wanting now; but right now it doesn't seem that their advice is hitting the mark with how long this endeavor actual takes.....I say that because you are still discussing breeding Zoe and we all know she will be too old by the time you have enough knowledge to breed responsibly. Does that help??? I am just trying to be helpful.......you really are interested in learning but are you interested enough to see Zoe is not the one???

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Do you have full registration on zoe?

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Yes, that does help.  I understand and comprehend what you are saying.  I also see what you mean by not having enough years under my belt to take on such lengthy endeavors.  I also, with a heavy heart, understand that Zoe may not be the one to initially breed.  It's difficult to take in these warning signs when it's become a dream.  Thank you for your heartfelt advice and I will remember these words when having discussions with other people on this forum, as well as, when meeting showers and breeders.

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I'm going to preface my own advice with the statement is that I do not breed Doberman or any type of dog. Never have and probably never will. But I do breed horses. And setting aside the ethical questions of 'is this right for the breed' or 'is this even right for your dog,' there's a few other questions you need to be asking yourself. Is this the right path for you financially? Vet bills, transportation costs, supplies for before, during and after pregnancy. Remembering that dogs can't leave their mothers for WEEKS after they're born. You're going to have to feed them and her. Is your current home big enough? She's going to be a large area to actually have the puppies in. This can't happen under your bed. Then you're going to potentially have up to 10 puppies for weeks that are going to grow at an astonishing rate and will need room to run.

 

What about emotionally? What happens if there's an issue with the pregnancy and you have to, God forbid, put Zoe down? That's always a risk whether you're breeding dogs or horses. Always. Are you ready to deal with the fact that your dog died because you wanted to get into breeding with her? As someone who has had a pregnancy go wrong and had to put down a good mare and her foal, I can tell you... it took at least 2 years for me to even considering breeding a horse again. To this day I spent HOURS debating whether the program I've set up with the stud's owner is the right one for my mare. Plus that's another HUGE financial blow. It cost me thousand dollars to put my mare down, have the autopsy to find out what went wrong and have her remains disposed of in a decent manner. Not to mention we were already in the hole on the entire Endeavour since we lost the foal as well. All that money spent on ultrasounds, vet visits to the house, transportation. Gone.

 

Please don't take this or any of the previous posts as attacks. Pretty much everyone I've met on this site is CRAZY passionate about this breed. Which is a good thing. Their advice is sound, try to hear it with an open ear. They aren't attacking you personally, they're just wanting you to seriously consider what should be a very serious choice.

 

And I hope you get to enjoy MANY years with your beautiful Zoe as you discover the breed and everything they are capable of doing. I just wanted to give you some things to consider as someone in a somewhat similar position as I am new to this breed and still learning at the same stage as you.

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I'm still very curious to know if zoe has full registration or not.

As far as first choice for breeding, when you start to get involved in showing, and working with reputable breeders, handlers, etc., you will be more likely to get a dog that is breed-worthy.  What I mean by this is that breeders are only going to give full registration to certain people, and ALL good breeders sell to non-show homes on limited registration.  This means the dogs can not be bred.

You don't buy 2 dogs, and breed them.  Once you have your female that you are going to breed, you look at the faults, qualities, temperment, etc., and you begin to search for a suitable mate that has traits that will compliment your dogs.

Honestly, just being realistic, it will take someone years of research to become an ethical breeder, and to fully be able to understand what is involved in responsible breeding.  Good breeders do not repeatedly breed the same dogs, either.

Just keep learning, and researching, it will all start to come together.  But the best thing is going to be when you start getting involved with others that have the knowledge and experience to help you out.  

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Alrighty, KevinK, this may lean others in the direction that I am not yet ready to start breeding...I totally understand this, hence the reason I am asking this question.  When you say "full registration" to what exactly are you referring?

Zoe is registerd through AKC, with registration number and the names and numbers of her dam and sire; I also have a 3-generation pedrigee for Zoe with previous AKC ancestors.

I would like to know, so that I have a better grasp on your meaning. Thank you.

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Just a quick question to Mellonnew is that a Fresian??? beautiful horse......and great points on the dog breeding questions - lots to consider......sorry to hear about your mare and foal ......

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Full registration is breeding rights.  If you don't have full registration, you cannot breed zoe, and none of her offspring would ever be able to be registered.  

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--Talisin...don't let him hear you utter such blasphemy! Trouble has pride issues  Haha. Nope, he's a Tennessee Walking Horse. And thanks for the sympathy, it was pretty heartbreaking. I think I sobbed from the time the vet gave the prognosis until I got her urn back. It was quite easily the most heart wrenching event I've ever gone through because the mare was in SO much pain beforehand and it was my fault since I decided to breed her. That's why I want the OP to be sure s/he's emotionally ready to handle that kind of guilt if something does go wrong.

 

And actually I've thought up a few more questions that the OP might want to think over. What are you going to be breeding for? I don't know if this holds true for dogs but when I look for a stud for one of my mares I'm looking to produce a foal that meets a very specific set of criteria. Especially since I will usually already a potential buyer lined up. Is the animal going to be showed in confirmation shows or agility shows or both? Maybe headed into law enforcement or into the service arena? Doberman Pinschers can be found in all of them but the requirements for those arenas sometimes but don't always overlap so you'll need to be looking at specific titles and traits in both dogs.

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Hi Mellonnew,

I have placed some thought on the cost of this endeavor.  I'm not sure how much (estimated) the cost will be, which is another area that I will need to look into.  I read that pups can begin to leave their mother at 8 weeks.  With that, I do understand I will have to feed Zoe and all her pups for at least 8 weeks.

My husband and I have a medium sized area on our property dedicated to our dogs.  We would like to add a protected home where Zoe can birth her pups.

I am definitely tapped into the emotional side of breeding and the possibilities of grave risk.  I know that I would feel a great amount of remorse and guilt if anything were to happen to Zoe, especially, since it would have been my idea to breed her.  I know what it feels like to lose an animal I love, but I don't have any personal experience with losing an animal and having a hand in their death because of what I wanted.  So, something to think about is the possibility that I could lose a lot of money, but my sweet girl and her babies, too.  Intially, I would be heartbroken and unsure if I would ever want to take on such an endeavor again.

I guess you have read my previous posts and sensed my upset.  I tend to take things personally, especially, when I feel that I have the privelage to try and I'm not being given a chance.  I like passion and dedication, the way people on this site are forthcoming with their information.  I see that they provide sound advice, which is why I'm on this site, because I feel I can learn a great deal.  My ears are open, I just wish I felt the same from others on this site when it comes to having questions.

Zoe will be 10 months soon and I look forward to watching her grow and change and enjoy every minute of it.  If you'd like, I have tried to put together a scrapbook of her pictures as she grows and you can view it under "Growth Spurts". Enjoy and thank you very much for what you have shared with me.

DobyZOE

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KevinK, thanks for the clarification.  The color of the pedigree is tan with blue trim and the AKC stamp is in gold.  If Zoe does not have full registration, is it too late to register her now? 

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registration is up to the breeder, it's not something that can be changed.  And sorry, I meant the registration paper, not the pedigree.  It should say on the registration papers.

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Mellonnew,

I would like to breed for a couple of reasons.  I would like to breed with Zoe to have high quality pups that can add to the breed, as well as, people's homes and families; I am a special needs teacher with students who have moderate to severe cognitive disabilities.  These students respond well to animals and have a strong desire to care for something (at least those that are higher functioning and understand what it takes to care for themselves and an animal).  I would love to seek homes and families where someone intellectually disabled lives.  I believe a doberman, with their intelligence and sensitivity, could really add to the life of a cognitively disabled, more high functioning person.

I have found a training center close to my hometown where I would like to enroll Zoe in obediance and agility training classes.  I would like to start there and then possibly increase that toward conformation showing.  I would like to add some titles and certifications to Zoe's profile.

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KevinK, the registration certificate is white with purple trim.  What I have recently noticed is that the registration certificate is detachable and the back needs to be filled out for transferring Zoe to me.  I thought I had done this already.  Once this certificate is detached and filled out, will I then be able to get the full registration needed? and then get the information as to whether or not the breeder registered her for breeding?

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registration is determined by the breeder at the time of registration...  So, if your dog has a limited registration, then it can't be changed.

One thing I can say, is that if your dog came with full registration, you can almost 100% assume that she should not be bred.  But when you start showing, and working your dog, this will give you a better idea.  But like said, you also need to know about the family history as well before making any final decision.  

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Now being a certified service animal is a wonderful experience! I actually have a horse, NOT the one in my profile picture, but another horse who is certified. The kids at the local middle schools in the special education classes get to come out and ride on him and a few other animals around the stables I work at. It takes a long time to get certified, at least when you're wanting to put a delicate child onto 1000 pounds of horseflesh, but it's so worth it. You seem to have a lot of heart and passion. That's definitely an area of the animal world where you could focus it while you learn all you need/have to about the breed specifically and breeding in general. And it's a good start to understanding the kind of work you're going to need to put in if you still want to breed in the future.

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is there any way you can post a picture of it, and/or the pedigree?

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Just for clarity sake, if Zoe has come with 100% registration, couldn't she be bred then?

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Well, I immediatly saw some bad news...  Zoe carries the albino genes, which would automatically exlude her from any good breeding program.  Z factored dogs can not be responsibly bred, unfortunately...  You can tell this because the second letter in the pedigree is "z" which is the albino gene.  It's hard to see in the pics, but you can tell which other dogs have it, they will all have the first letter "w" and if the second letter is "z" then they have the albino.  aka the "z factor".

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I think a service dog can do wonders for all children, but especially those with special needs.  I have a few students who ride horses therapeutically and it's really great to witness their experience.  It's very uplifting and promotes a lot of positivity for the child. 

Thank you for saying you see a lot of heart and passion from me.  I do feel strongly about learning about the doberman breed and all that it entails to raise them, show them and breed them.  I want the best for Zoe, and if that includes her having pups, wonderful and if not, I'm very happy with who she is and I know she will have a good life here with us!

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Yes, I read about the "z" factor and about the exclusion of that in the breeding arena.  I see that it seems to be on the female side of Zoe's ancestors, her mother directly, her mother's mother, and her mother's mother's mother (whew, that was a mouthful)

However, if these registered dogs go back so far with the "z" factor, how were they able to breed?  I will want to check to see if any of those bitches' litters had any albino pups.

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Also, zoe's dam is 2 years old...  so, she got pregnant around 1 year old?  This is the kind of stuff you want to avoid as a good breeder.  

Zoe is also located on the albino list, as this gene is always passed on, whether or not it shows.  You can find this info on the dpca website, they keep a list of all albinos, and all dogs that have the albino genes.

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It's not a matter of "being able to breed".  They CAN be bred, legally.  Just not ethically, and it's not something that someone that loves the breed would consider, unfortunately...  My best advice at this point is to give up the idea of breeding Zoe.  This is not a trait that needs to be passed on, and it still remains because of unethical breeders.  The breeding pool is so low on these, and there are many problems associated with it.  Please, please reconsider...  There are many problems associated with inbreeding, which is the reason why these dogs are still around with the z factor.  This is not to say that your dog is terrible, but under no circumstances would it be an ethical, or wise choice to breed her.  But please understand, I'm not trying to say anything negative about your dog, other than the fact that breeding her would be 100% unethical.  I would just love her as a great pet, and keep learning, and eventually you will find the right dog to start with.

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Mellonnew I bow to Trouble in shame and humbleness that I should upset his pride by thinking he was a Fresian, hahahahaha, the picture is so small that I saw fresian but don't tell him I said that again, hahaaha, he is beautiful. He appears to be a large horse too.....

I think you brought up some great points horses and dogs are much the same in the breeding areas same as I think that kids and dogs can be trained the same, :))

Kevin - you have been very informative even to me I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread and learning about the doberman myself through the questions and answers, and hearing that the z factor is in the pedigree I immediately took a deep breath cause that is not something anyone would want to perpetuate.

I am sure that Zoe will be a great dog and excel at whatever she is given, and that while you are enjoying her you will be continuing to learn and research and you will find a great dog eventually. Once you learn the pedigrees and which pedigree has the traits you are looking for you can approach that person and learn from them and possibly get a show quality dog from the pedigree you love and then begin showing and earning the titles and getting into the thick of things and at that time you will have become aware of what you really would like to do and why and be able to proceed from there.

Congrats on wanting to help children with animals I love this idea always have.....can you get Zoe certified as a therapy dog??? That will be rewarding for you both...

 

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Thanks Talisan, and great point!  Just because zoe shouldn't be bred doesn't mean that she can't become a therapy dog!  There's still plenty of ways to help.  The certification to become a therapy dog is actually not that difficult with a little bit of work, the testing is not all that different than a cgc.

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that would be great for Zoe and it would help the kids and give a good representation of the doberman breed to the public, that's not a bad way to start out working with dobermans, helping people dogs love that.....I think it's great that you took the time to look at the pedigree for Zoe and point out the z factor and those issues.......

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Hi guys,

After reading about the z factor with Zoe's genes and having a thorough discussion with my husband, we have decided that breeding her and knowing that she would pass on the gene is not something we want.  It's really too bad because we had such high hopes for Zoe becoming a mom.  We feel rather deceived from the breeder whom we bought Zoe.  According to the pedigree, the z factor gene has been passed along through the last 3 generations, on the dams side.  As a licensed breeder, I'm sure she knew about the mutant gene and being inexperienced, I did not know to ask such questions about Zoe.  Zoe is going on 10 months now and still has not experienced her first heat.  This could be a sign, as well, that she was never meant to have pups.  My husband and I think it's best to have her spayed and get her involved in training exercises in obediance, agility and therapy.  Zoe is a wonderful addition to our family and she can do many things; breeding will just not be on her list of things to do.  It's unfortunate and we are really bummed about learning about this.  However, this will not stop me from learning more and educating myself more about the breed.

Thanks for all of your advice and insight and I hope that we can all communicate more in the future.

DobyZOE

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By all means take pics of Zoe doing whatever she decides she wants to do, and if she works with children get pics of her with the children those would be great to see, keep us posted on Zoe's adventures.....hope everything works out with the spay and she heals up nicely......and just a side note she carries the Z factor and her name is Zoe so she really does carry the Z factor in more ways than one, sorry it was just so obvious to me that it was unique that her name would start with the gene that she has that is unique.....

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Very informative thread. I have no plans to breed dobermans. I do research dog breeds before I ever bring one home though. So I am here learning as well, just not for breeding. It does however help to know these things when trying to find a reputable breeder. If I had not found this site I would never have known the questions to ask the breeders.As well as signs to look for as to if someone is reputable or not,what their breeding goals are for the betterment of the breed,cost of a litter,z-factor,limited or unlimited registration,AKC standards,the list goes on and on. There truely is a WEALTH of knowledge here on this site if you are willing to search and read and learn.And to think,I have done this much research just for choosing a breeder to buy a puppy from. Then again, we are looking at it to become a assistance dog so the decision is not taken lightly. Yes, it will be a companion first and foremost but when it means it could possibly help you become a little more independant the decision is never made lightly.Therefore I will do my homework before ever contacting a breeder, making sure I know what to expect etc... as my husband has also been helping with some of the research about pet insurance for when we do bring our Dobe home. And I haven`t even had all of the questions I have answered but I haven`t really asked any yet I am just gathering information together at this point. So if I a potential puppy buyer research this well, you can be sure there will be others who do as well. Which is why those on here have given you the advice they have. A breeder`s reputation is built, with knowledge,love,care,concern for the betterment of the breed , they are not necessarily in it for the money.Therefore they need to know alot. As a puppy/dog parent, I too need to know everything I can.We learned the hard way with 2 rescues(australian shepherds) who one has struggled with health issues most of his life and was probably from a bybr and I see it every day I look at how much he has struggled.Do I love him any less? Nope. but a reputable breeder will NOT sell puppies who they know are sick,have health issues,will not breed their bitch to a dog that would bring in health issues, etc... all these things factor in.I mean, I don`t know about anyone else but I could not sell a puppy to someone from a pair I CHOSE to breed knowing the puppies would not be healthy or didn`t do my homework to make sure they had the biggest chance of being the healthiest they could be and given a proper start in life. I know there is a lot more I have rattling around in my brain that I could say or comment on but this is just my 2 cents from a prospective puppy buyer who is still in the researching the dog breed stage who has no intention of breeding a dobe EVER.Yes I am sure there are plenty of unsuspecting people out there that keep the bybrs in buisness. I also know that many of those unsuspecting people have had tons of heartache as I have with my one aussie with his health issues. And his were not terribly bad ones compared to some others out there. so making happy families means caring enough to do years of research to be able to breed for the best possible pet regardless of what the dog will be entered in, show,agility,obedience,assistance,service,family pet, etc... health testing for the issues the breed is pre-disposed to as well as hips,elbows in which there is a certain age req. of the dogs to even have their hips/elbows tested to see if they are good,normal,excellent etc.. anyways, I will stop rambling now.

Yes, yes I have been reading and learning A TON HERE. I am greatful for this forum and the people here who are so very knowledgeable and willing to share what they have learned.

mrszelly