Hi I'm new - is this nomal?

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cocopops's picture
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Hi everyone :)

I am currently looking after my sister's 4month old Dobermann bitch pup (who she only bought just over 5weeks ago, pup was then aged 13weeks) as she isn't supposed to have pets in her rented house and her agency received a noise complaint of the puppy barking all night. She also has 2 other small dogs (a papillon and a terrier) who are still there as they dont bark much. I've had the pup here at my house for 10 days now and although I have a lot of dog experience I've never had any dealings with dobermanns.

She is an angel in the house here and hasn't barked either at night or when left for short periods during the day. She is fully housetrained and hasn't had any accidents. She gets on brilliantly with my own male staffordshire bull terrier and 2 kittens. I've been doing a lot of work on obedience training with her as my sister said she was a devil to walk on a lead and although knew how to sit she would break the sit as soon as the treat was shown. She now walks nicely to heel on a lead, will sit/wait and down/wait and is calm in the car.

Now although the above would point to an amazingly well behaved and well adjusted puppy, there is a down side...

She is very anxious bordering on fearful of other dogs whilst outdoors. She displays tense body language; with head down, ears back, shaking, whining and with hackles up. This will lead to screaming if another dog runs up to greet her, and has progressed on 2 separate occasions to snarling/snapping/growling/lunging.
She does go to puppy socialisation/obedience classes but as soon as she enters the room she will shut down completely - strains consantly on the lead to get to the door, whines/yelps and will not concentrate whatsoever; even refusing to take food treats of fresh cooked chicken&dried liver!!

My sister bought her at 13 weeks so I am considering it may be in part down to her having missed her first crucial socialisation period entirely, and then being moved to a new home during the beginning of the fear period (I will add here that my sister is neither a confident nor experienced dog handler!! Her pap has defensive/possessive aggression towards people, and especially children. Her terrier has extreme fear aggression and must be walked in public with a muzzle).

I have also looked into her pedigree and she is extremely in-bred (not even overly line-bred, this is inbreeding, with the majority of the dogs in her pedigree all being closely related...including father/daughter matings with a pup from that litter being bred back to it's father also!! This is throughout both sides of her pedigree.)

She is also slightly nervous of new people - let me stress here that she is great with the people she knows but is wary of those she doesnt know (and this is very different from my experience of 18 week old pups who want to meet & make friends with everyone they come across! Again though, I don't know whether this is common in dobes?!)

Any replies would be greatly appreciated :)

Thankyou

talisin's picture
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Wow, welcome and thanks for taking on this youngster, no offense to your sister but it doesn't sound like she has the dog knowledge to be the "owner" of a doberman of any age, if she has a terrier that has to have a muzzle to go out in public and a fearful Pap she obviously doesn't have the skills necessary to handle what a dobie can dish out. Top that off with the fact that she is knowingly breaking rules in a rented home that could lead to her having to rehome all of her dogs instantly or be thrown out is just irresponsible to the animals in her life, no regard for their welfare just what she wants. I would suggest that if you can keep the dog since she is learning under your guidance that would be best for the dog; as for the fearful lunging and snapping that advice will have to come from the experience dobie people here, I have the honorary doberman Ben the Rottweiler so I have not personally experienced the doberman puppy months you are in currently. I know dobermans respond differently to situations than other dogs, but from a dogs point of view I would say that if I were a puppy I would prefer to meet another puppy slowly and one at a time until I realized that it was fun and something to look forward to; I would be overwhelmed as a puppy to be in the presence of alot of other dogs and all the noises and people out in public everything would be huge in size and loud and strange so I would want to be introduced in quiet areas with one dog at a time that sort of thing. Others may have more to add or not agree with that. Again welcome and you will learn a ton of stuff here on how to raise your young doberman, and tell your sister she is not doberman parent material......

Bainismybuddy's picture
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Joined: 2012-11-23

Hey Coco,

I experienced an extremely similar situation with Bain. I picked him up at 12 weeks and he was extremely fearful of other people, dogs, he would even refuse to walk in the dark. He would display most of the same signs (shaking, whining, yelping, ears back, tail tucked) and while he would never display agression (raising hackles, snipping, etc.) it was extremely concerning to me. He will be 5 months next week and we have made great improvements in building his confidence. Bain started very slow with walks during the day around the neighborhood. I would also bring my brittany Kade on these walks as he was comfortable around her already. This helped him see other dogs and people while he was out of his comfort zone of the house. During these walks I was very careful and would tell my neighbors to not approach him and keep there dogs back as I was trying to build his confidence. You may need to go out of your way to facilitate this so that the walks remain positive and your sister's dobiegirl stays relaxed (switching sides of the road, walking the other direction, whatever is necessary). Bain did require a little food/praise motivation to keep him moving as he did not like being away from his yard. After a few days of our neighborhood tours we began walking at night under the same circumstances as during the day.

Once Bain was comfortable walking around and just seeing other dogs I asked a friend with a new husky puppy if he could bring her over. Kade and the husky had a play date while Bain watched. Later that week I arranged another play date but this time I let Bain off his leash after he watched Kade and the husky play for a little. I kept this sort of confidence building up by taking Kade and Bain everywhere walking them around and letting Kade play/meet other dogs but Bain just watch. Every experience was kept positive and required a lot cautiousness. I would make sure the other dogs were well trained and explained to their owner(s) that I was working on building Bain's confidence so they needed to keep their dog under control. If this was not agreeable upon or the other dog started to get out of control the meeting ended and we left. On a later playdate we held the husky and encouraged Bain to come near. When he did so he was lavished with treats and praise. Shortly after he couldn't contain his instinct and sniffed the husky for which he was given treats and praise again.

This was a slow process and required a lot of work to make sure Bain wasn't set back by a negative experience around strange dogs. Eventually he got comfortable enough around the husky and began playing with her on our meetings. Whenever another dog in the neighborhood would come over to play with Kade I would let Bain keep his distance and watch. He began to start a "I'm gonna run up and sniff your butt while your turned away" practice with strange dogs but would retreat if they took interest in him. Every opportunity I had I would take Bain and Kade to keep building Bain's confidence around strangers. Dogs that were Bain's size he would approach and play with, however, we hadn't quite made it there with dogs bigger than him.

Now at almost 5 months Bain will happily approach strangers and dogs without showing any signs of fear. He is still working on himself being approached and dealing with larger dogs but is making progress. Keep every experience positive and praise her like you just won the lottery when she shows progress in her confidence building (staying relaxed when she sees another dog, sniffing another dog, playing with another dog, anything of that sort). If the situation turns negative and she begins to freak out don't comfort her (that will only let her know what she is doing is ok) just leave the situation.

I am so proud of the progress Bain has made and I hope something I have written will help your sister's girl. It really is heartbreaking to see a dog that is fearful of something it should be enjoying.

Charlie

Wolfgirl_121's picture
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... I have no idea what your sister was thinking!! Why in the world would she go out and get a large, hyper, needy breed in a rented house where she wasn't supposed to have it, along with two small dogs with MAJOR issues??? And on top of that, she got an EXTREMELY inbred puppy? If I were you, I would keep the pup and refuse to give her back. 

No, this is not normal behaviour for a dobe. I would do as Bainismybuddy suggested, he has dealt with this well and has been successful. 

cocopops's picture
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Thankyou all for the replies thus far :)

Talisin - Ben is adorable! I have explained to my sister about how much hard work Coco will be but she is adamant it will be fine :/


Bainismybuddy - I have been doing everything you put in your post so far - she sounds very similar to Bain! Currently I am only allowing her to meet&greet smaller, 'milder' breeds who appear calm and balanced. I ask other owners to keep their dogs out of her way entirely for the moment if they dont fit into this category as I dont want her to get a fright and for it to set her back.
I am used to the brave, fearless, bold demeanour of Staffords so this anxiety in a pup so young is entirely new to me.

Wolfgirl_121 - Unfortunately my sister is the complete opposite of me and rushes into big decisions without extensive research and consideration :( I simply cannot just refuse to give the dog back to her, she legally owns her and although I know the dog would in all likelihood be better off staying with myself my sister has every right to have her back. They are currently moving house (into another rented house where pets are not allowed...yes I know, don't get me started on that!!) and estimate they will be having Coco back in about 2 weeks when she will be around the 20weeks mark.

She has puppy class again tonight so I am going to ask the trainer if it is possible for Coco and I to simply sit and watch the class for a period and if I feel she has settled enough to then join in. I don't see much point in forcing sits/downs etc out of her wen she's in such a heightened state of anxiety.
She met a 5month old springer spaniel puppy this morning who although very bouncy was also very submissive and despite a barking, hackles up, snappy Coco to begin with she did settle. She then met 4 older King Charles Cavalier Spaniels who she greeted very calmly after they totally ignored her, so a good morning all in all :)

Hopefully below will be a couple photos of her!!






 

Buddys_ Mama's picture
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It sounds like you have done a lot of reading and have a natural aptitude with dogs in general. She is lucky to be spending this time with you and hopefully all of your hard work will not be undone when she goes back to your sister. It's so unfortunate when people take on an animal that they are simply not equipped to handle. It's very upsetting to me that she would take this dog knowing that she A.) is not supposed to have pets in the rented home she is in and B.) that she doesn't seem concerned that this puppy is unhappy and/or upset. Very irresponsible.

On a lighter note, she is a pretty little girl (name?) and I hope she gets the attention she needs/deserves wherever she is.

 

Mama

cocopops's picture
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Her name is Coco :)

Yes I've always had dogs and I show Staffords, my ideal job would be a dog behaviourist but I currently work as a carer! My sister was never overly interested in dog growing up but 2 years ago bought a papillon with her then boyfriend. She babied him and praised any sort of defensive/possessive/territorial behaviour, sometimes deliberately but most of the time without even realising! 7 months ago she bought her terrier off a family who couldnt cope with him, she thought because he is small he would be easily sorted out (but he is a jack russell x fell terrier so a real working type and has working needs!) which turned out to not be the case - his very mild anxiety has turned into full blown fear aggression in the time she's had him.

In the 11 days I have had Coco here, my sister has been out once to see her and my main concern when they have her back is that they wont be able to cope with her and so either ignore the issues or unwittingly exacerbate them. 

I think the reason she was causing such havoc at night with barking is that she wasn't getting enough stimulation during the day. They walked her once a day on average which would be a 20min on-lead walk in their local park, which is full of dogs!
They didn't allow her off lead because she would try to run away whenever any dogs were in sight - which was sensible seeing as the park is surrounded by main roads...but she still needs to be able to let off steam and in my opinion they shouldve been taking her to secluded areas where she could safely run free.

Here she spends time doing some obedience training, gets play time in my decent sized garden and gets 3 off lead walks during the day which includes a trip to the 5 acres of land I keep my horses on!

We will be off to puppy class in 2 hours so wish us luck!

 

Buddys_ Mama's picture
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Good Luck! I hope by some chance that your sister forgets to pick her up after she's moved! lol I would love for her to stay with you if you'd be willing!

talisin's picture
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Oh please tell your sister to let this dog stay with a stable person, you not her.  Obviously if she got the terrier who had mild issues that are now out of control she is NOT capable as she says of handling anything she makes things worse as can be shown to her from her own dogs behavior, it's bad enough with a set of little dogs but to introduce a doberman that if not treated, exercised and trained properly will become a dog that will have to be rehomed or euthanized is no way to go and such a cute little thing Coco is!!!! all the hard work you are investing in her will not be rewarded or refreshed in her mind regularly and will end up being for naught......you have got to talk sense into your sister about this breed and her living situation. If this dobie gets out of hand and bites a neighbor she is not only going to be homeless with two irrational little dogs but will lose her dobie and possibly be fined or jailed it's an accident/liability waiting to happen. What does your sister see as proof that she is capable of doing anything right by this wonderful little girl Coco??? Not to be in your face about this, sorry if I sound direct, but I work in Rottweiler rescue and we see this all the time and I can't talk long enough about this or hard enough so sorry if it sounds harsh but please please so many good dogs are abanadoned because of people like your sister. Keep this dog!!!! buy her or something but do not let your sister have her back and if need be I would do tough love on her and report her to her landlord for the little dogs before she has a chance to take the big dog in.......and yes I would do that to my sister, cause my animals come first......people can get over it animals never do......they trust us and we owe them to be there for them.....

Keep us posted and good luck, sounds like Coco is having a blast with her new friends on the farm....

Wolfgirl_121's picture
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Please listen to Tal... DO NOT give this pup back to your sister!! I can almost guarentee that this pup WILL end up hurting someone, maybe even your sister, if put back into that situation. Plus, she is still an impressionable pup, being around the other two terrors is just going to show her that she can be aggressive and bite people because they aren't getting in trouble for it. If this puppy goes back to your sister, I'm afraid that her life will NOT be a good one. I'm not trying to be mean, so please, don't think I'm a bad person or anything, but my main concern is with this puppy. Not your feelings, not your sister's feelings, and not legal niceties. Just because the puppy is legally your sisters does not mean that she has the tools she needs or the emotional capacity to take care of a dog, let alone a doberman. 

cocopops's picture
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Hi guys :)

 

I understand where you are coming from Wolfgirl & Talisin but if my sister wants her back there is nothing I can do except advise...I know you arent being mean or anything of the sort - its exactly what I would say to anyone else who told me this situation!!


In an ideal world my sister would simply listen to me and at least allow Coco to remain here until shes a fair bit older and more stable, that way I could get her training well established and hopefully she would be a much easier dog for my sister to manage. But and its a big BUT, this isnt an ideal world and I have a feeling my advice will fall on deaf ears!

On to more positive news...puppy class went really well compared to last week! I think she trusts me now, whereas last week she had only been with me for 3 days so was in all likelihood very unsettled. She was still very anxious, whining etc but wasnt straining on the lead te whole time to get out. At one point she looked up at me, whined , placed her paw on my leg and pulled for the exit...I knew she needed the toilet so I excused us and took her outside where she promptly went :) She completed sit/down/wait/heel/leave exercises without shutting down and I was very proud.

 

My sister came along to watch and asked me to take her up to all the other dogs to 'make her say hi' - I explained how you cant force her and if you do she will simply react negatively. She responded that she needed to learn how to get on with other dogs sometime but I ignored her and we carrier on nicely!
After the class we were walking to the car when a lady stepped out from behind the car and suprised Coco, with it being dark and her not knowing the lady was there she gave a low growl; more a warning to me that someone was there rather than anything else. My sister then went on to say if she cant get on with other dogs and is going to be funny with people then she wont keep her - so theres light at the end of the tunnel for her still changing her mind about keeping her!


 

cocopops's picture
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Well I broached the subject of Coco staying with me and was met with a flat out absolutely no way response :(

I have been trying to drop hints about how much exercise she needs already - let alone full grown, the amount of money it will cost to feed her and how she is going to have to work really hard with her on socialisation. Plus be extremely careful with her 2 small dogs as Coco already loves a good rough&tumble with my stafford (which is supervised, ruled and ended by me!!) but if she did that with the papillon she would really hurt him. He is very intolerant and would snap at her a lot, which wont help with her socialisation at all!
She said she has already paid out a lot of money for her and wont just throw that away, plus her boyfriend 'loves' Coco and wouldnt allow it. This is despite the boyfriend being as wet as a scrubber and having no clue about dogs; they chose a dobermann because he liked the look of them - yet has never owned any dog in his life!

I have got more attached to her than I expected and it will be very hard for me letting her go :(

I weighed her yesterday on the vet's weigh bridge and got readings of between 13.6 and 14.4kg (she was wiggling!) and going by her heighy against my 15" stafford Im assuming she must be about 18" tall at the moment. She truly is a velcro dog and sticks to me like glue! I hope she doesnt miss me to much when she has to go home, and that the upheaval doesnt unsettle her too much. They move into their new house on friday so I expect will be wanting her back a few days after that

 

talisin's picture
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Oh my lord, I cannot bear to read these posts but I have to in hopes of hearing that the sister has come to her senses.  I would seriously turn her in to the landlord, if you know this is not going to end well for the doberman and could possibly lead to her killing the little dogs in rough play or bite a neighbor later, you have got to step up to the plate here, turn your sister in to the landlord anonomously so she has no way of owning any dogs where she is at, her boyfriend sounds like a problem waiting to happen with a doberman, "he likes the looks" so he needs a "macho" dog to fill the void in his self esteem, this is a disaster waiting to happen. All things point to this dog being a failure and a danger to others if allowed back with her and the boyfriend. He is going to find it "fun" or "entertaining" or "cute" to see and hear her growl, hackle up etc. and misbehave and he will not correct her behavior cause he obviously has no clue of what to expect or how to react to doberman behavior and his stupidity about the breed will lead to a liability or someone in the family getting hurt including the dog......this dog deserves better than this. If she won't just let you have the dog then see to it she CAN'T HAVE the dog in the first place........you seem to not want to cause strife with her over this by not turning her into the landlord or being in her face about this, hinting to your sister is not working; a simple call to the landlord will take care of it......and in some instances where renters rules say no dogs allowed if a renter is found to be breaking the rules especially with a "bully" breed there will be no options for a rescue to step in or someone to take the dog, the landlord can have the dog destroyed!! Is this the kind of uncertain future you want for this little dog that you are attached to now??? if not then step up and fight for her......as Ben my rottie would say "fight for us cause we can't do it for ourselves" I feel I beat my head against walls all the time doing rescue work on cases like this I am begging you to do this for Coco.......and all the others that are sitting in shelters around the world cause of people like your sister, do it for them.......you are in the position of power in this situation how you use that power will determine whether Coco is a failure and her life ends prematurely, sorry to be so blunt but I see it all the time.

I want to commend you on taking her to class and ignoring your sister's push to force her to meet other dogs, proof she has no clue what she is doing. But thank you for investing the time in this little girl she so needs it.......and she's already demonstrating a bond by warning you of a stranger in the dark, she is really your dog........she's enjoying her training and routine with you, a stable environment.......

cocopops's picture
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Talisin your post warmed my heart - you have said the exact same thing I would've said to myself if I had been a stranger telling this story. I have considered what you suggest and am willing to go through with it if it comes to that - obviously I don't want to upset my sister but again I don't want the possibility of coco either living a sheltered, cloistered existence like the terrier she has, barely being walked because of his fear aggression and nor do I want any chance of her hurting someone or their pet. You are also right about the boyfriend, he's a lovely guy, really nice but incredibly soft natured and hasn't a clue about dogs. Actually when coco growled the other evening after puppy class my sister even said oh at least he will like that bit about her!! I am a little concerned though as my sister says she has been reading dobermann sites on the net - which she thinks have told her most dobermanns under 20 weeks get very defensive and snap if worried/frightened and that as a breed they are always a bit nervous of strangers :/ that's very different to my understanding of what I've read!! I am also worried she may see this thread so I will remove it later on - is that possible?! Anyone is welcome to send me a private message though :)

bet 1941's picture
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O listen to what Tal has said.. I think those little dogs being the older dogs when Coco was a baby set the stage with her being fearful.. even her being big she was a baby and they made her afraid..

My little one is so mild mannered he is used to having other dogs so he would just step aside and let Missy drink from the water bowl or whatever..

When you turn your sister in make sure no one knows it is you.. or she may just take Coco away from you out of spite.. offer to buy her also make payments.. Tell her that dobies need a ton of exersise or they will be distructive.. also most people would never advice having the same sex in the household.. I knw the rescue would never let me have a male being my toy poodle is male..

hugs, Bet

cocopops's picture
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She was very nervous from the moment they took her from her breeders house, so I don't think its the fault of the small dogs - though I doubt they helped matters either! They are both males so no issue of same sex aggression, my own dog is also a male.

Looks like my sister isn't moving in to her new house til mid December so have a couple more weeks to try and talk some sense into her!

Roreh's picture
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She is such a beautiful girl! I love the picture of Coco and your Stafford outside in the grass. Too cute. Glad that you have more time with her, till mid Dec. Keep us posted on her progress. I sure do hope everything will work out :)

KevinK's picture
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Wait, so your sister thinks it's ok to have several animals in a house that she is not allowed to have animals?  Is she looking for a new house?

cocopops's picture
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Thanks Roreh, will keep you posted :)

 

KevinK - her current rented house does not allow pets. The rented house she is moving into within the next couple of weeks also does not allow pets...!!

KevinK's picture
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wow, truly unbelievable.  What is going to happen when they tell her she can't have the pets in the house?

Buddys_ Mama's picture
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I just sent you an email. :)

cocopops's picture
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She already knows Kevin...her aim is for them not to find out she was 3 dogs!!

Will look now buddysmama :)

KevinK's picture
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what the hell kind of place give someone like this dogs???  This is why we have millions of dogs in rescues, dying every single day.  This kind of stuff infuriates me like you couldn't believe.  This selfish, thoughless, greedy behavior kills animals every day.  Truly, absolutely pathetic.

cocopops's picture
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I do understand Kevin - I've worked with rescues myself so I know the sad stories of dogs being given up because of x/y/z. The papillon and dobermann were bought from 'breeders' who had a male and female of the same breed and thought it would be a good idea to have puppies. The terrier was bought from a family who couldn't cope with him and were happy for anyone to take him as long as he wasntt their problem anymore :(

talisin's picture
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looking forward to hearing about you turning her in so that all the dogs can move onto forever homes that are with responsible people.......stick to your guns and turn her in before she has a chance to try to take coco from you don't wait till the last minute.......good luck.....

cocopops's picture
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Will have to wait until she at least moves the other 2 dogs in and maybe even coco - for it to be believable that a neighbour has . complained the dogs need to do something "wrong", like barking...

Nobody would complain if the dogs were well behaved because the neighbours won't know she isn't allowed pets so she would be very suspicious if she was immediately reported.

Legitimately if dogs were barking its feasible there may be a complaint - coco has most definitely found her voice now in terms of protecting her home. Any little noises outside and she's on full alert, she starts with a low growl and then maybe one or 2 warning barks - if someone walks up to my house or past it she barks like hell

Have told my sister this so she knows about it and she said she wants her to be quiet in the house! Told her its part of them Rocky want to warn of potential intruders...

KevinK's picture
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How does she walk and exercise them, and get them in and out of the house?

Lady Kate's picture
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You know what?? I've been following this thread for a while now.. Too long in fact, and I'm starting to doubt the validity. I know I know.. I'm always the doubting Thomas of the Forum.. but guess what.???. My batting average is way up there now.

First of all.. I will officially apologize to "cocopops" if all this is actually happening..

Second.. I flat out don't believe that:

A.) someone is so cruel/stupid as to have animals under impossible conditions.

B.) Someone would admit to having this person in their family and going on a public forum telling the sad details.. KNOWING the answers

I've seen:

" yes. you're right"

I've seen:

"That's exactly what I would say."

I've seen enough.

cocopops's picture
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Kevin: She walks/exercises them as anyone else with dogs does...

She isn't watched by her letting agent/landlord! Lots of people here have pets in houses they aren't meant to, not sure where you live but here is quite common as finding rented accommodation that accepts pets is near on impossible

Lady Kate: wow not much of a lady are you! I've seen a lot of forums but that post from you is probably the most ignorant I've ever came across.

Do you live in the UK? If not I would say your opinion on the 'impossible' situation of owning dogs in rented houses which don't allow them is invalid. Lots of people here are forced to lie about owning animals as they don't want to give them up but need a place to live! So they hope the landlord doesn't find out...

Yes its a sad situation but who on earth would be so pathetic as to make it up?! If you know people who would do such a thing I city you the misfortune of knowing them. Nobody is perfect and my sister has made some stupid spur of the moment decisions without enough forethought...but me attempting to pick up the pieces is part of being family! She is only 20 so has a lot of growing up to do.

I suggest maybe you ask a few questions before leaping to conclusions...from that post I would jump to the automatic conclusion that you lead a pretty sad life and have a very negative view of people if that's the impression you have of me. But I wouldn't deliberately choose to come out and say that to you as it would be extremely rude and to assume is to make an ass out of you and me!!

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What is your deal "lady"?  It's one thing to be passionate about dogs/Dobes but you did something similar in my recent post with the issues I'm having and it seems you and Kevin, though experienced, are the antagonists of this forum.  No amount of knowledge or success in any subject will make it right (EDIT: Definitely it's your right but it's not sociably acceptable to people with any manners) for someone to degrade, berate and ignorantly jump to conslusions without knowing the whole story.  Not everyone is fortunate enough to spend all their time with dogs, buy $2k Dobes of highest pedigree and totally prepare (EDIT: Prepare beforehand).  Hello!!  People, much like the dogs you so admire to the extent of making yourself look like a real jerk (at times with posts such as these) on this forum, make mistakes and the tone of some of your responses is not one of compassion or the desire to be helpful or accepting that people do make mistakes.  You and Kevin should perhaps get away from the dogs for a moment, take a breather and properly train yourselves in socialization skills because you behave at times as though you are typing from a kennel.  To the OP- I'm a beginner but I admire you. You've done a great job and I wish you the best.  It's never hard with family when you know they're incorrect, and when an animal is involved it's hard I can only imagine.  Sorry I don't have any advice for you but I wanted to chime in and say congrats.

cocopops's picture
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Thankyou justbrill07 - I came here asking for advice on the breed not to be told something I already know about my sisters lack of knowledge and suitability for the breed!

I have no experience of dobermanns so originally wanted to know whether her nervousness and anxiety was perhaps a breed trait - and thanks to some helpful people here I know that not to be the case!

I don't need lectures on how my sister shouldn't own coco - I have the intelligence to know that for myself, but I couldn't prevent her buying her...there will always be breeders willing to sell to whoever has the cash. Let me just say my sister does love the dogs, they are not abused or neglected in terms of their health care/feeding etc but she just doesn't have a clue about how dogs need to be treated/handled and that is the issue with a large powerful dog like a dobe.

rgreen4's picture
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Obviously your sister has never been around a full grown (12 mo or older) Doberman when they bark. There is no hiding the fact that there not only is a dog in that house but the fact that it is a large dog. They have been know to rattle windows with their "business bark".

Coco is currently a medium sized dog about two to three times the size of the Terrier and Papillion and has a moderate mid toned bark. In two months she will be close to twice her current size and not be through growing. She will gain another 2 or so inches from that and add another 10 pounds or so. Many full grown Dobes easily hit 80 pounds (36 Kg). She is currently about 14 Kg (31 Lbs) at the age of 18 weeks which is a little heavier than Princess was at that age and a little lighter than Jake was at that age. Princes is now 4 years old and weighs in at about 72 pounds and Jake is 15 months old and close to 80 pounds. It is one thing to try to control a snarling nasty 15 pound terrier and an 80 pound snarling Doberman which already have a bad (unwarranted) rep thanks to unknowing or uncaring owners.

You will have to decide to whom you have more allegiance Coco who depends on you or your sister. Maybe if your son in the photo begs your sister, and you offered to reimburse her, would that help?

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Excellent advice Rgreen!!! Plus if the sister is just 20 years old we all know how a large dog can monopolize our time and requires alot of our personal time/effort so a 20 year old female should think twice if they like to be out an about enjoying things that 20 year old enjoy such as not staying at home with a demanding dog, this is not a dog you can just pop into the car and take anywhere and everywhere, due to the stigma of "bully" breeds and fear associated with the doberman thank you to the media! so this dog is not going to fit her lifestyle and possibly end up making her homeless or move again; and at 20 it's a good thing to have an older sister to TELL her what is acceptable and what is not when it comes to animals this is not someTHING that she can learn about on her own and have no reprecussions this is a life that is depending on her making right decisions by them and at 20 and having no clue someone has got to say NO flat out NO and yes as someone who works in rescue for Rottweilers another large misunderstood breed I can safely say that it is abuse to send a dog into a situation such as your sisters, she may not be striking the dog or starving it etc. but taking on a dog that she has no clue about and being somewhat flippant about "I want it to do this or that" when you tell her that the dog will do the opposite and she still insists she will get her way - that is abuse of the animal. Anytime someone cannot provide proper care for an animal it is abuse and she is not going to provide for this dog what it needs.

I think all of us here will welcome any and all questions you have about Coco and her behavior and any issues WHEN you manage to become her permanent owner, until then we are all beside ourselves with worry about the future of this doberman. Seeing to it that you understand fully you can and should take a firm stand with your sister and say NO is a priority right now. As Rgreen said it's time to figure out where your priorities are - with Coco who depends on you for stability or with your 20 yr. old sister who later will thank you for not letting her have Coco back even though she might be upset initially. How can you send Coco back to her with a clear happy heart?? That's what confuses me, she lives in a place that doesn't allow pets yet has two little scrappy dogs and now wants a dog that she will not be able to control and will therefore become a threat to anyone and everyone out of frustration and yet you intend to send the dog into that environment knowingly just because she says she wants her back. And what difference would it make if she knew you turned her in, that would show her how serious you are that she is NOT the one who should have Coco, just tell her if she insists on taking Coco you will turn her into the landlord so that she will back off and understand the seriousness of the situation for Coco. Her boyfriend and her will both make this dog immensely unstable and that will end up with the dog being harmed or dropped into a shelter at which point Coco will have to be rescued by a knowledgable person or put down, it's best to catch Coco now while she is still in a position to not be permanently affected by your sister and her boyfriend and those two unstable dogs she will have to live with, and you do know that the little dogs are unstable because their environment is unstable?? now add a dog that can become aggressive or fearful in those situations and you have a time bomb waiting to explode. Again - you are the person in power here and I really really want to hear you exercised that power for the good of all especially Coco regardless of your sister's reaction.  what's the worst she could do if you insist on keeping Coco???

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First of all Cocopops and Justbrill07, Lady Kate and Kevin are well known and very respected, very helpful, and some of the most considerate members here. So I suggest getting along and not badmouthing people you don't know or else you may not get the helpful kind of responses that you've been getting.

Secondly, Cocopops, you can't get mad at Katie for thinkin your a troll cuz we get a lot of them, if your for real, stay and prove it. Don't be rude.

Thirdly, I know how hard it is to have a highly intelligent dobe at a young age. I got Skyler when I was 17, I am now almost 20 and only have a social life with other dog people. I don't get to go out very often, my friends think I'm crazy because she's all I talk about, and the petco people know me by name!! These dogs take a lot of time and effort, if your sister can't deal with it, I don't care how young and immature she is, she shouldn't have any dogs. Don't use her age as an excuse because it feels like an insult. People are gonna start thinking that we're all like that!!

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rgreen4:
You are correct in my sister having not met adult dobes, the only Dobermanns she has ever met are Coco's parents; who had very loud barks!

I took her for a weight/health check at the vet's today and she weighs 15.3kg (her DOB is 19/07/12 so she will turn 20 weeks on Thursday)

My sister and her boyfriend came to take her for a walk yesterday and both remarked on the barking being an issue - I feel that by the time they are ready to have her back I will have been able to convince them (one way or another...) that she is better off staying with me.

Talisin:
I would certainly not be sending her back with a clear or happy heart, it would upset me deeply to hand her back - hence why I am making a huge amount of effort to ensure she is able to stay here! I would much prefer to do it with my sister's blessing rather than by force (eg telling the landlord, which would also make her other 2 dogs homeless and at risk of being PTS given their behavioural issues...I do not want that on my conscience as much as I dont want Coco being a risk!!).

The worst she could do if I refused to give Coco back would be to inform the police that I have stolen Coco, who could then come and remove her from me. In that situation not only would I have broken the law but I would also have irrepairably damaged my relationship with my sister (who despite all her faults is still my sister and I love her!). It would also mean there would be absolutely no way Coco would ever be able to live with me, so potentially I would be harming her too!

Dont for one moment think I havent considered every possible situation and scenario because I really have. I am a massive advocate of a dog is for life and have in many cases taken on dogs who otherwise would be dumped/abandoned and found them new forever homes. This isnt something I take lightly but since it concerns my family I have to act sensitively.

If all goes to plan Coco will get to stay here and my sister will have made the choice to allow that to happen because it is the best thing for the dog...

Wolfgirl_121: I do not see how someone gets to be well respected when their very first post to someone is as rude as hers was to me?! I think I responded as politely as I could given the tone of her post to me, I have not badmouthed her nor been rude...

I understand forums gets trolls appear; I am a member of Stafford and equine forums - yet never see a troll post in the manner I have! Their posts are nearly always either silly or confrontational, and in most cases they dont come back to respond to any questions asked of them! My sisters age isnt an excuse, its fact - some 20 year olds are much better equipped to deal with things than others (not just dogs, but anything in general life!). She is very immature in some ways but mature in others; her immaturity shows through her lack of consideration and 'I want it' attitude. I am hoping her more mature side decides Coco is too much for them to handle and it would be better for her to stay here.

Lady Kate's picture
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 First of all I never called cocopops a troll. And secondly I apologized up front if indeed this thread was the real deal.. I'm not sure what you want Cocopops.

There have been numerous suggestions from people who's heart you touched and broke. None of which seems to be what you want to hear.

I think the most frustrating thing I've encountered is when people join the forum and ask for help, suggestions, advice whatever.... they get it.. and then ignore it.

It's hurtful and disrespectful to the honestly concerned.

I am sincerely sorry for your plight. I don't have an answer for you. But I will keep you and Coco in my prayers

Katie

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Hi katie

I have not ignored anyone's suggestions, I didn't come looking for solutions as to how to stop my sister keeping coco - I came to see whether her behaviours/temperament were typical of the breed at her age.

The suggestions I've received, albeit not asked for have been ones I already know of and have considered myself.

I am thankful for the help and advice I've received from members here and I hope I can keep coco so can pester you all with more questions as she grows up!

For those concerned about coco I can assure you she is in good hands and I will do everything possible to keep it that way

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Brillo, I'm sorry you feel that I am an antagonist.  I think most people that know me would tell you that 99.9% of the time I am a nice guy, who will do anything for anyone.  I just hate reading these kinds of things about dogs.  No offence, but someone who would buy a drivey, working breed dog, and then be surprised that he chases free range chickens?  Seriously?  Ever hear of a leash???  Then you say you have tried everything, but in the next breath say that you are a beginner and have no idea what you're doing?  Come on...  We have the answer to every question we could possibly have at our fingertips these days, between computers, cell phones, tablets, etc.  "I didn't know" is no longer an excuse, especially when you are making yourself responsible for a living, breathing creature.

As for this thread, yea, it ticks me off.  What kind of an irresponsible, selfish, greedy person purchases a THIRD dog, when they live in a place that doesn't allow pets?  She was FORCED to do this?  No, that's a crock of shit.  Nobody FORCED her to get a third dog, nobody FORCED her to lie when she shouldn't have had 1 to begin with.  She CHOSE to ignore the rules, disregard the consequences, and get the dog anyway.  Maybe some consider this to be responsible, I however don't.  And, if that makes me an antagonist, then so be it, that's a title I can live with.  I know what it's like, I waited 5 years to get a dog.  Why?  My apartment complex didn't allow them, so I waited.  I wasn't FORCED to get one anyways, and then lie about it.

cocopops's picture
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Kevin I would be interested for you to highlight where I said my sister was forced to get this dog...?!

I am most certainly not a beginner with dogs, I have a lot of experience with them but not of dobermanns specifically; hence asking on a breed specific forum!

I'm sorry my post annoys you

Joined: 2012-06-25

Pet Profiles

Kevin never said she was forced to get the dog.... He was talking about forcing to lie about the dog which I believe you mentioned... But that is neither here nor there.

I've also been follwing this post and while I'm not a well respected member of this forum, I find it amazing how many accusations are being thrown around! When I bought Charlie, I was living in my own apartment but since the apartment didn't allow dogs over 25 lbs and my roommate had two cats, I made the decision to move back to my parents house (and still paying rent at my apartment!). My parents have a large fenced-in backyard that provides plenty of room for Charlie to run around in. Also, there is someone home 24 hours a day so Charlie wouldn't feel neglect. It was the best decision for Charlie which is why I made my decision. I don't know about your doberman but mine also barks a lot. He'll bark at leaves falling off the tree, lol!

I think this is a very sensitive subject since a lot of people feel for your situation! I understand you're in a difficult position... I've been hesitating to post since this is such a hot topic. I'm not going to suggest whether you should fight with your sister or not because that was not the original intent of the post. Charlie has had similar problems - I'm looking into signing him up for some obedience classes at the beginning of the year. Charlie will be shy around other dogs to begin with but he'll start to warm up to them after a while. I've been trying to get him some doggy play dates so he can socialize with other dogs. He loves people - he's always approached strangers with a wagging tail and had a positive demeanor. I think part of Charlie's shyness started when a pit bull attacked him at the dog park (yeah, the owner did nothing except offer a weak 'leave him alone... he's a puppy'). He'll still try to approach other dogs but if they run after him he will whine before they even touch him... 

Partially off topic, thank you for posting pictures of Coco!!! She is such a beautiful dog!!

cocopops's picture
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Joined: 2012-11-25

Thank you for your input lily :)

I've never said my sister was forced to lie and neither was Kevin - she has chosen to lie; she always knew she wasn't supposed to have pets.

How old is Charlie? Coco has never had a negative experience with any dog. Though she didn't leave her breeder til 13 weeks old so missed out on a lot of socialization in the very beginning

She's grown loads even since those pics, will take some new ones and post them on a new thread

cocopops's picture
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Joined: 2012-11-25

Coco is still with me :)

Starting new thread with some updated pics of her and some Qs about other dobes of her age!