European Red Doberman

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Lioness28's picture
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I have a 2yr old full European male Dobie that I am interested in studding out. I have his full lineage and all his health records. Contact me if you are interested 678-754-4998

I'd be interested in knowing why you think he would be a good stud dog?  What are his titles, what health testing have you done? 

Quite frankly, with a post like yours I would guess that your knowledge of the breed is minimal and you are just looking to make some money. Please feel free to prove me wrong.

Lioness28's picture
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First, I never said he has any titles. I said he is a full breed European Red Dobie and I have his AKC certified pedigree documents since he was whelped.  And no, I don’t have extensive knowledge of the breed of dog, but I know that I own a healthy, certified  2 yer old pup that I would like to breed. 

DobermanGuy's picture
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I'd be interested in knowing why you think he would be a good stud dog?  What are his titles, what health testing have you done? 

Quite frankly, with a post like yours I would guess that your knowledge of the breed is minimal and you are just looking to make some money. Please feel free to prove me wrong.

I got 2 bucks that say your 'titles' end up with the dog(s) pissing themselves while they run away the very first time the trash truck comes to empty the dumpster...

And from reading your posts here - Those same dogs you glady produce will likely need a special diet and a special vaccination schedule to avoid problems as well.

 

Wish you the best of luck thinking that any of that is somehow 'normal' for an otherwise healthy Doberman...

 

 

 

DobieWanKenobi's picture
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DobermanGuy, no idea what that first part of yor post means. If the dog has a conformation title then the breed meets the physical standard and if the dog has a working title it obviously has the correct temperament (probably means it's not going to turn heel an run from a bit of noise...). A good breeder will only breed a dog that has proven the dog has something to offer the breed.

 

I have a beautiful EU black and tan girl who is intact...She's also fkn mental and no average joe would survive a year with a puppy from her. I almost got rid of her and I knew what I was getting into. She hasn't been titled in show or sport, so the only people who will notice a litter from her will be your average joes. What experienced Doberman owner is going to buy from a pet dog breeder? Mister Nobody. Experiened Doberman owners know that the breeding of the dog is as important as the upbringing. I have bought a Doberman from somebody like OP who had some pretty dogs who seemed like good pets (until the dam bites) and I will never ever do it again. That dog was put to sleep at 17 months old. They seemed like good breeders until I called to ask for help because the puppy they sold me was neurotic. 

 

Dobermans aren't exactly famous for their good health either. There are PLENTY of pretty, unhealthy and unwanted Dobermans with KC papers out there for you to take home. Why create 10 more? "I don’t have extensive knowledge of the breed of dog" then you have no business putting 10 more of those dogs into people's homes. 

 

Lioness28's picture
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Wow. 

DobieWanKenobi's picture
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? People who like the breed and are concerned about the growing health issues caused by irresponsible breeding are trying to discourage it in order to preserve the breed we have knowledge about and love? You must be so surprised.

 

Lioness28's picture
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All I want was some puppies . I could do without the insults, innuendos and just plain meanness. Some people always seem so negative, unhappy and just combative for no reason. Enjoy your day all. 

This is a link to the DPCA code of ethics, read it and think about it. This is what reputable breeders and stud dog owners follow. 

Pay special attention to # 8-12

 

http://dpca.org/club/DPCA_COE.php

Enjoy your boy - do stuff with him: Obedience, rally, nosework, agility, protection training..... ect ect ect..... Learn about the breed. Breeding is not where you start as a beginner. Trust me that your boy does not need to be bred. Also, learn what health tests need to be done before even thinking about breeding. I don't know what you mean by "health tested", but I'm betting it does not include all of these things that should be done:

Hip x-rays independently rated by OFA - A one time thing after age 2

Full thyroid panel - this is a test that needs to be repeated periodically for the life of the dog

Full blood workup including Liver and kidney panel: repeated for life of dog

Eye Cerf: repeated for European Dobermans

Cardiac Ultrasound by Vet Cardiologist: repeated yearly

24 hour holter monitor (EKG): repeated for life of dog

 

Lioness28's picture
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Thank you. I really appreciate your reply !

glengate's picture
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I agree with Fitzmar.  But even more health testing than that is needed, imo. 

When doing hip x-rays and evaluations, responsible breeders will also have the elbows done.

A DNA test for von Willebrand's disease needs to be done.

Responsible breeders are also doing the two DNA tests for dilated cardiomyopathy - the PDK4 (aka DCM1) DNA test and the DCM2 DNA test.  While they will not tell you definitively if your dog will go on (or not) to develop dcm, they are 2 genes that we can improve while we wait for more to be developed. 

Also, the DNA test for Dings should be done.  You can avoid producing puppies with this vestibular disorder.

Anyone can "have puppies" - it's not rocket science.  But good breeders are not going to be interested in a stud dog without all of these tests.  I'm sure you'll attract lots of other people that just want to "have puppies" but they won't be good breeders and they won't be quality puppies.  Having a pedigree for your dog is not an indication of quality - you actually have to understand that pedigree.  For instance, do you know the ages and causes of death of all of his ancestors in that pedigree?  Do you have the results of their health testing?  Do you know anything about their temperaments?  Their conformation?  Their strengths and weaknesses?  You're bringing all of that to the table when you breed. 

I really do wish that breeders had to be licensed, take courses and pass some kind of exam to bring life into the world. 

 

Thanks Glengate - had a brain fart and completely forgot to list VWD DNA.  

I generally do elbows now - but know that it really isn't a big thing for Dobermans. I also agree that PDK4 and DCM1 DNA tests are nice for research purposes, but personally feel that too many BYB's are using them as "free of DCM" tests so I don't really list them as health tests - to me they are research tests JMHO.  I have not done Dings testing as I haven't had any and am not currently breeding. Will most likely do it when I'm health testing my next Doberman.... whenever that might be.

Lioness28's picture
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I really appreciate everyone’s imput....quite educational and eye opening. 

DobermanGuy's picture
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I have bought a Doberman from somebody like OP who had some pretty dogs who seemed like good pets (until the dam bites) and I will never ever do it again. That dog was put to sleep at 17 months old. 

Breaks my heart to hear about stuff like that. 17 months is still a puppy in my opinion...

No further comment on that as I don't know anything about it and it is your business anyway - Not mine. Very sorry for your loss.

 

Not mentioning any names but I know a guy that previously owned one of the Doberman forums that you likely know and he did the same thing to one of his dogs over a very minor bite incident he had between the dog and his wife. Lost all respect for that idiot when he came in the moderators section and explained what happened and what he then did to the dog afterwards. No attempts made to rehome the dog, No attemps to retrain (or seek assistance with training), No cooling off period to attempt to try and better evaluate what may have happened or how likely it 'might' be to happen again - Just an instant death sentence to the dog for a one time, out of the blue bite that did not even cause any permanent scars or damage.

Really kills me how some idiots view dogs as being 'disposable'...

 

 

 

 

Melinda's picture
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I wish I knew how AKC vets the health issues in the bloodline, I had my boy pass this weekend of DCM and last year at this time, red passed withDCM. Turns out 58% of these beautiful dogs get DCM, it’s a horrible heart disease that you can do nothing about except buy very little time. I’m heartbroken, I am not a person that shows dogs, I’ve just always had Dobermans, I have one red pup now, he will be my last one as AKC seems to be registering bloodlines with disease. This disease basically drowns them in their own fluid. Just venting because of what has happened, not trying to insult anyone at all. Have your babies screened yearly for DCM.

glengate's picture
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The AKC is a registry of ancestry only.  It is not their responsibility to monitor health.  I know you're heartbroken, but really how could they even do it?  You register a puppy, you have no idea what is going to happen to it 4, 5, 10, 11 years down the road.  As you said, upwards of 55% of Dobermans are lost to dcm - it's inherent in the breed, period.  Most breeds have *some* problem or one kind or another.  It's on breeders to try to do their best to health test, be honest about it, support health research, research pedigrees extensively and try to make good breeding decisions.  And it's on buyers to seek out those breeders.  People support the worst breeders every day, breeders that don't know about the problems in their own breed, or don't care and breed anyway.  And people just keep on supporting them because they have puppies when the buyer wants one (convenient - God forbid anyone should wait for what they want!), or the puppies are cute, or they're cheap or they're close by, etc.  There are a hundred reasons why people won't actually do some homework and choose good breeders, and they sure aren't helping the breed.

I don't agree that there is nothing you can do.  You can use resources like dobequest and the DPCA's longevity program to research bloodlines and choose more wisely.  I've talked to a lot of prospective buyers over the years who have lost 5 or 6 Dobermans to dcm, every one, every time.  Yet, I've had this breed for 37 years and I've lost only one to dcm, and I've owned dozens over the years.  I try to stack my deck and buy wisely when I buy, and I try to breed well when I breed. 

 

Melinda's picture
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I just lost my boy and I am completely crushed and just needed a place to vent. I don’t need or want a lecture. I’m grieving, not looking for an argument, my red was a rescue, I don’t know his lineage, I just want to give them the love and care they deserve. They still need love and homes no matter where they come from! I should not have vented here on this site, my mistake.

 

glengate's picture
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It wasn't a lecture, it's just a discussion.  You can vent here all you like, but people are going to answer - that's the nature of discussion boards. 

When you're heartbroken, sometimes you vent at the wrong parties.  The AKC is not responsible for what happened to your dog(s).  That's all I'm saying.  That's like saying it's ancestry.com's fault when someone gets lymphoma, you know? 

You said you wished you knew how the AKC vets health issues, and the answer is that they don't.  It's not their mandate. 

Joined: 2018-03-19

Why do you want puppies? To sell? or keep?

eileennellie's picture
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I'm so sorry about losing your boy. I lost my red boy, Dobie (Gillis) on 7/10/17. We think it was a heart arrhythmia. He was a rescue, too. I'm guessing from a very irresponsible byb, as he was brought to a shelter by a man who had been trying to catch him for a month and his tail was so short and poorly cut that the skin split open and had to be repaired twice. Not knowing his history didn't make him any less wonderful. He was aggressive with people and dogs, but not with me or his friends or my female, Paris. He was an angel. The 8 years I had him was not enough, but every day I am grateful for having had him as long as I did. I plan to get another rescue down the road. They do deserve a chance, no matter their background.

Also, I go to rainbowsbridge.com for support and help dealing with pet loss. I lost both my dobers less than four months apart. It's really hard.

 

Lioness28's picture
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JUST ONE PUPPY FOR MYSELF, not to sell 

Joined: 2018-03-19

My last two doberman pinchers were from litters of 14 pups. A litter of 1 is almost unheard of. 

 

Not that uncommon to have a singleton litter - very often, they are a c-section as the bitch does not always go into labor when there is only one.

A litter of 14 would be (in my experience) more uncommon than a litter of one. 7/8 is an average litter. Unless puppies are supplemented around the clock by the breeder, it would be very common to lose several puppies in a litter as large as 14. 

Melinda's picture
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Thanks so much for your understanding Eileenellie, we miss our boys. We now have a 9 month old red Doberman, a Doberman mix who is about 3 and an Irish Terrier that’s 13. They are our kids, spoiled rotten. Again thanks for your compassion and not making it worse.

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Hi I'm new to the forum world and I dont know if its appropriate to ask a question here about what I just read or I should of started a new thread... please let me know. Anyhow as I was reading this conversation about a good breader would do all of those test before breeding their dogs, I'm wondering if I did the right thing by adopting my Duke from a breeder that never showed me all of his dogs health history...well not a mistake because I love my Duke but does it mean that their could be a possibility of health problems down the road with my baby or even bad behavior? He's now 11 months old and his father is an American dobbie an the bitch was an European dobbie...is that ok to mix the two together? I'm not an expert to the breed but love it! I had my 1st doberman girl for 12 years that I just lost last October named Princesse. I would like to know on how to correct Duke, as he growls at my husband sometimes when there is food or certain treats involved. I've been grabbing his neck like his mother would do I was told and say I clear no to correct him but it's still with no results... he still does it:( i hope i didnt hijacked a thread... let me know please thanks

You might do better to start your own thread as this one is a couple of years old and you have more than one question. 

No one can guarantee the health of any dog, good breeders try to make sure that the health is good before breeding and not breed dogs with health issues.  It minimizes your chances of getting an unhealthy dog, but does not eliminate it. Generally though, the breeder will be there for you for the life of your dog.  This breed has many health issues, there are things you can do to help keep your dog healthy, but always know that some of it is luck.