New Litter Washington State

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Joined: 2010-12-22

Whelped 6/14/2011. 3 red males and 6 black and rust females.
Sire: Line bred (for Conformation)Maximus Doberman, V.W.D clear (VetGen DNA), OFA certified hips (excellent) and elbows (good).
Dam: Shurluck ancestory, V.W.D carrier.(VetGen DNA)
Total body organ testing done and documented for both, Dam and Sire before breeding.
Serious inquiries only. Ready for new homes at 8 to 9 weeks of age.
Males: $825.00 Females $750.00
Good Homes Only wyatt71108@live.com

Joined: 2011-06-21

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Aw, I want one! Too bad Mom said no more Dobermans 'til I'm older:(

Sending positive Dober-vibes & good luck to you & the pups!

von Cosack Dobermann (not verified)
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I thought Maximus was in Virginia? Is this Irena Barrett? Von

Joined: 2010-12-22

No. there are 3 Maximus Doberman breeders in continental U.S. Mine are line-bred meaning every 4th generation they are bred back to keep quality of dog from being diluted by breeding to other lines. These pups sire is Wyatt Maximus. vwd clear, O.F.A cert hips and, elbows, conformation show winner. The dam is Mercedes Von Newland of the shurluck line which boasts over 100 champions. She also is a one time conformation show winner and vwd clear/carrier. Both tested and documented by VetGen=the world's leader in DNA testing.

 Wyatt's O.F.A certification is available to the public.

  Not everyone that uses the name has true linebred Maximus Dobermans.Mine are true Maximus and shows all through the pedigree dna cert #'s etc.

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What is a "one time conformation show winner"?  What did they win exactly?  In what organization?

Why isn't the dam of the litter in the OFA database?  What are the results of her health testing?

And why didn't you mention that she's ALBINO factored? 

Joined: 2010-12-22

She was never xrayed for O.F.A cert.  Both won 1st place ribbons for conformation in a AKC sponsered event in Bellevue, Wa. Showing is not my thing. My Dobes are companions.

Both were total body organ tested before breeding and had great results. Thyroid, heart, liver etc.

As far as Albino there is no such thing. albinos have red eyes,not blue.

 Also, According to VETGEN=the world's leader in animal dna testing, the has been no such test ever developed to test for white genes. I have asked and asked AKC and DPCA for any such proof that what they claim is true and they cannot or will not discuss it. No animal Genetics Lab even has the ability to test for this. Check for yourself.

I had AKC go as far back as they could on her and they can find no white Dobes being born in her liniage all the way back to Sheba in 1976.  

DPCA condoned in the early days, the killing of these pups. Now they reccommend that they not be bred. It makes no sense to me that they blacklist these Dobes without difinitive proof of any resessive gene. The only info DPCA have ever produced suggests that what they say is true but has never proven true by any standard. Try yourself to get them to prove it and they will not speak with you. If you can understand the dilution factors for fawn,blue etc. and can understand the writtings the DPCA has made available, you will see that there is no actual proof just hypothisis and suggestion.

  I at one time wanted to join the DPCA until i understood how they discriminate against every Dobe ever born of Sheba's liniage even though after thousands of pups and decades of time there have been NO white Dobes born of any but white parents.

 I have done more testing and research than most Breeders do on their Sire's and Dam's. I know mine produce very healthy pups and are not vwd affected unlike another breeder and member of the DPCA.

If anyone asks or cares I tell them about the z designation anmd supposed factor.

 And you want to try and shame me?!  AT least I am not DPCA affiliated and breeding a vwd affected carrier. Which there is difinitive proof for.

Joined: 2010-12-22

  the ribbons are for first place 6 months and under and 1 year and under.

it was directly after the class put on by akc on showing your dog in 2009. entry #'s 051 and 052. after that i have never shown them nor do i have the ambition too. Faye Straus was part of this event.

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Do you have a website, or pics of these dogs?  Pups, and parents?

Joined: 2010-12-22

Her health results were good on everything . white and red bloodcells, liver, heart, thyroid no abnormalities found.

 I see you have no concerns about the Sire. He is of Excellent quality.

 Just the Dam. I am guessing that you belive the DPCA like most without researching yourself.

 I also did offspring colorcoat Dna. and while there are tests for Blue ( my Sire carries one copy of D=capable of producing blue if bred with Dam carrying one copy of d also.

 My Dam shows no white genes and I repeat there is NO SUCH TEST.

  VETGEN 3728 plaza Drive, suite 1 Ann Arbor, Mich. Toll Free 800-483-8436.

 Ask them yourself

Joined: 2010-12-22

i appologize for being defensive. I have tried and tried to talk to the DPCA about this subject and they will not do it. Website is defunct. I only breed one litter every two years, so i saw no sense in maintaining the site. I do have pix of Sire and Dam and of last litter. none as of yet of this one. they are 8 weeks on the 14th.

Joined: 2010-12-22

i have 5 black/rust females left and the three red males. ads are out over most of Washington state as of today.

 I'm not trying to piss in your cheerios or anything but you had one statement that has me confused.

"My Dam shows no white genes and I repeat there is NO SUCH TEST."

If there's no such test, how would you know?

Just asking.

Joined: 2010-12-22

shows no white genes cuz there is no test. i should have wrote differently if you order colorcoat dna they can test for any locus you ask for cept white there is no test for white. call VETGEN or any reputable Dna test lab and they will say no test avail for white. VETGEN is the Worlds leader in veterinary dna.  She has capability of red and black/rust only according to results. He is capable of black/rust, red and blue only. no fawn, no isabella in either result.

 you have to specify what color you want to test for and each is seperate as you will find out if you research this further. white can not be done tho as i said earlier. sorry for the confusion. Plaese do call and find out the truth for yourself. the more people that know the truth the better as i see it. Don't belive me nor DPCA without asking VETGEN. find out for yourself. it's free to call and ask.

 I know what my animals are and their health beyond any other breeder i have ever met. none have done the color testing nor the total body organ testing that i have done. I don't sell mine for thousands either. But i know they will live as long and in good health at least as long as any high dollar Dobe out there anywhere.  

Joined: 2010-12-22

 The only way the DPCA can get away with it's claim is to say it is a resessive gene and to get others to take their word as fact. resessive means it is one that hides it self. So if this is supposed to be hidden and is to explain why it can't be found, then how can only they claim to be the finders. Especially when everyone who know anything aboutVeterenarian dna testing knows the VETGEN is the best. You read what the DPCA states, do the research, and then you decide who to belive.

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Well, I know what I believe and it's not you.  I'll shoot some holes in your theories later. 

Joined: 2010-12-22

i look forward to that. do your best, but make sure you dont waste my time with anything but actual facts.

 i don't have time for your or anyone elses opinions. or theories. much less attitude or unprovable statements.

I welcome difinitive proof. and again good luck with that.

Joined: 2010-12-22

it's funny how people who have not reseached something themselves hang on to what they have been told as gold. Dig thru your websites and anywhere else you can to come up with some proof against me and VETGEN if you can. What i have posted i did not have to look up because i have done the research and VETGEN will back me up. Call them yourself and see.Then you probly will not belive them either.

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Well, let's start here:

I had AKC go as far back as they could on her and they can find no white Dobes being born in her liniage all the way back to Sheba in 1976.  

Um, her great great grandmother is Fancy Shastina Self who was an albino as were both of that bitch's parents Victorian Silver Of Camelot and Maichen Failveit V Smith. 

Way to do your pedigree research! 

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Ok, here's another:

Sherluck ancestory? 

You call one Sherluck dog in 5 generations "Sherluck ancestry"? 

Try again. 

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albinos have red eyes,not blue.

Not true.  You can find this info on just about any site with info on albinism.

From the National Organization for Albinism and Hypopigmentation (NOAH) website:

 

In fact there are different types of albinism and the amount of pigment in the eyes varies. Although some individuals with albinism have reddish or violet eyes, most have blue eyes. Some have hazel or brown eyes. However, all forms of albinism are associated with vision problems.”

An interesting site:

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/publications/volunteer/young_naturalists/albino_animals/albino_animals.pdf

One quote from it – “Albino animals are astonishingly all white, sometimes partly white.  And their eyes are deep pink or icy blue.”

http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/2005/06/all-about-albinism

One quote from it – “Pure albinos usually have pink eyes, nails, scales and skin. They're pink because, without coloration, the blood vessels show through. In humans and some other animals, the eyes of an albino are light blue or green because of the way light passes through the iris.

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 Also, According to VETGEN=the world's leader in animal dna testing, the has been no such test ever developed to test for white genes. I have asked and asked AKC and DPCA for any such proof that what they claim is true and they cannot or will not discuss it. No animal Genetics Lab even has the ability to test for this. Check for yourself.

I already know that there is no DNA test to check for the albino gene, which is exactly why the DPCA keeps the Z list, and why the AKC inserts a Z into the registration number of every Doberman that has albino ancestors.  With the absence of a genetic test, it only makes sense to AVOID breeding every descendant of an albino because you don't know where this recessive is lurking.

The DNA test for dilution hasn't been around all that long but the genetic inheritance of colour in the Doberman along with dilution was figured out quite some time ago, and charted and well understood.  Breeders might not have known if the gene was there but they knew if it was possibly there and could make breeding decisions accordingly.  This is the situation with albinism.  If the possibility is there, breeding the dog should be avoided. 

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there have been NO white Dobes born of any but white parents.

Now that statement is just completely false and a complete lie.  Each parent has to carry the gene for albinism to produce it.  A black, red, blue or fawn Doberman can carry the gene for albinism and albino puppies are certainly born from any colour combination of parents that each carry the gene.

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She was never xrayed for O.F.A cert. 

and

 I know what my animals are and their health beyond any other breeder i have ever met. none have done the color testing nor the total body organ testing that i have done.

Maybe you haven't met me or others like me, but I do more health testing than that and so do plenty of others.  Your bitch could have dysplastic hips or elbows for all you know since you didn't bother to test her.  You skimped on something so basic that I really don't understand how you can claim to do more health testing than any other breeder. 

I also don't see either of them in the CERF database, checked for heritable eye disease. 

 

Max Dobe,

Your serve!.....LOL

von Cosack Dobermann (not verified)
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These are very tuff days for a breeding program. The breeding pool has been so small because of a variety of reasons, none of them very valid. The show folks only breed to the type of dog thats a winner in the exibition ring, never looking into other avenues. The sport breeders do the same thing, so both are guilty of narrow mindedness. The byb'ers of today are totally in the dark about breeding knowledge. They don't know how to pick dogs that might compliment the other dogs weakness so the breeding has the potential to produce a better quality dog. The expression BYB years ago was NOT a negative expression it simply meant the breeder didn't exhibit in conformation shows. Their dogs were from quality and they knew HOW TO breed. Times have changed and thats why the testing has arrived also. The breed is weak and the breeding programs still don't move in a direction were new blood enters different programs so that not only health of the body might be a strength but the mental health can produce character and temperament capable of passing legitament tests that truthfully show that the animal is a capable working dog no matter if its being shown in conformation, agilty or a companion who watches the NFL with you. Breeding is a test in itself, I think the breeders in many cases have failed to breed the finest examples together because of their personal agenda that often times drifts from the Standard and the NEEDS that I spoke about above. First should come the Standard then our personal preferences are developed FROM the Standard. Hopefully we'll get back to a compact square dog, with an underjaw, and strong plains. Get rid of the stove pipe neck, the overdone front shoulders, terribly weak rear ends with hardly any width and inside muscle on the leg. A slightly rounded croup instead of the tail set that sits on top of the top line that produces minimal power. Ofcourse the over angulated rears, thank you Lex and in combination with Cash makes it even more ridiculous.

...hey this is a RANT Huh!!!!!! hahahahaha!! Sorry but I do get upset with the weaknesses the breed has encountered. When I bred dogs they lived to be 12 to 14 and we're healthy animals. I believe the things I meantioned have something to do with the problem. Then theres inoculations that are forced at times by county or state, the fields the food comes from weither its direct or a fed that is indirectly brought to their feeding bowls. Lots of things in the mix, Lots!                                          Von.

von Cosack Dobermann (not verified)
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Wheres maximus??? Moved?                Remember me Mary?                                      Von

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Hopefully, they're doing some pedigree research.  Although it would have been nice for them to do that before the breeding. 

And yes, I remember you.  Still trying to forget ...  ;-)

I had to join just so I could say "Kudos" to Mary for her research!   :-)

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 >>after thousands of pups and decades of time there have been NO white Dobes born of any but white parents.>>

 

Absolutely untrue!  Want some definitive proof?

Winter's Snow Angel Hussko
WZ005551/01 06-05
White

 

Sire:

Blues
WZ001694/01 02-02
Blue & Rust

 

Dam:

Murray's Red
WZ002079/02 07-03
Red & Rust

 

Want to see another example that's definitive proof?

Krystal Palaces Cameo
WP462363/03 05-94
White

Sire:

White Diamond's Ebony Boy
WP358696/03 05-93
Black & Rust

Dam:

White Diamonds Blue Mist
WG517135 05-93
Blue & Rust

Note: the last examples were all born/registered prior to the z tracking system going into effect, which is why they don't have the z designation in their reg. number.

These are just two examples out of MANY that prove two normally colored parents of the four approved colors can produce albino offspring.  This is the real danger in the breeding of these dogs, the fact that this gene lurks as a recessive, you can't tell what animals carry the gene by looking at them.  This is exactly why the z tracking system was implemented in 1996.  

 

I copied and pasted the information about these examples right off of AKC certified pedigrees.  Anyone can verify the information themselves through the AKC online store.  I'm also willing to email these AKC certified pedigrees to anyone who wants to see them on request.

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<< He is capable of black/rust, red and blue only. no fawn, no isabella in either result.>>

 

Anyone who understands simple genetics and the doberman color code would tell you it's impossible for a doberman to be able to produce black, red and blue only, with no possibility of producing fawn.

Color testing dobermans via dna tests for three things: black (B) red (b) and dilution (d).  There isn't a blue gene and a fawn gene, there's just one dilution gene.  A dog needs two copies of this gene to be a dilute color, with blue being the dilute of black and fawn being the dilute of red.

Look at this carefully:  Dog can produce black and blue, so we know it carries (d), or it wouldn't be able to produce blue.  Since it also can produce red and carries (d), it would HAVE to be able to produce fawn.

von Cosack Dobermann (not verified)
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 Theres no need to be rude Mary. This isn't that other place were you belong  were the members berate one another everyday. Please don't bring that attitude here, this a friendly forum with people who get along nicely.  Von

I would assume Von that anyplace celebrating byber litters and commercial breeders would also tend to remove posts by those who speak the truth even when it hurts.  Just looking around this site makes me wince and bite my tongue till it bleeds.  I don't think Mary was rude - anyone breeding should know basic genetics and the background of the dogs that they are breeding .... don't you think??  Or is being "friendly" more important than standing up for what is right?

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from Fitzmar: Just looking around this site makes me wince and bite my tongue till it bleeds.

 

Am I still logged onto Gentle Doberman, or did my computer make a jump to somewhere else?

Wow.  Guys, lighten up.

Nope I apologize - it is hard for me to come here and see the irresponsible breeding practices that are apparently ok here.  My 10 years of experience with my local Doberman rescue make me a bit touchy on the subject - I've seen too much to ever condone anything but the most responsible of breeders.  However, I should know better than to make a post like that about a forum I just joined. 

von Cosack Dobermann (not verified)
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No your here Ziva, so are they!!! The Dobermann police!!! The folks who speak and expect others to jump, a bunch of drama queens.

Fitzmar no one is celebrating anything, people here if they don't like what they see.....Leave it!!! The same thing I used to do with Boob Crew just Leave it!!! They get mad and go away, hopefully. Until they get personal then I get banned cause I don't take crap from drama queens who are bored "crankie" females who can't and don't get none hahahaha!!!!

No one will miss you here, they never heard of you and could care less about you. On behalf of the forum.....................................Hello.........................Good Bye!!!!! Von

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@ Fitzmar, I understand where you're coming from, and I admire anyone that has the time, effort, and finances to do all the things that SHOULD be involved in research and breeding this magnificent breed of dog.  I have no intentions in ever breeding, so all my dogs are spayed/neutered.  However, no matter what forum, group, or any other melting pot of humans and dogs that you might encounter, you will always come across someone that does things differently or has different beliefs and practices and they will feel just as justified in their own right for the way they do things as any one else does in the way they do things.  I'm not here to judge. I belong to this forum to discuss my dog with people who have a common interest with me---the LOVE of their DOBERMAN PINSCHER.   I know how I feel, personally, about breeding,  but I sure dont think that trying to shove my opinion down someone's throat is going to make them eagerly receptive of my beliefs.  Does that make sense? 

von Cosack Dobermann (not verified)
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Deaf ears Ziva, their concept is honorable the way its delivered lacks tact, inovation, style & class along with understanding others. Meaning some novice folks who might be open to learn  get put on the defense because their attacked. I've been through this years ago with this Crew who thinks they owe something to the breed but simply don't know how to handle this situation with novice breeders and owners. Same ol' same ol'............................some just can't learn. Von

Yep - no problem Ziva.

 

And Von - the feeling is mutual - LOL LOL!! I also don't know who you are talking about since I've been happily married for 20 years - "getting some" as you so crudely put it really is not a problem. 

von Cosack Dobermann (not verified)
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Don't know why I waste my time, you people have been here for a matter of minutes and all ready insult the forum, the membership and now want to smooth it over. Isn't that the old dt way? I'm Done with it!!!                                                                                                                            Von.

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Having differences of opinion about breeding (or anything else) is all well and good.  However, much of the discussion that's occurred on this thread has centered around correcting statements that were made as points of FACT that were totally false.  This is something totally different.  I think it's in the best interests of the breed itself as well as the people who own this breed to correct stuff like that. 

 

It also speaks to the knowlege and integrity of the breeder when these statements of "fact" have no basis in truth.  This is important information for a newbie trying to find a puppy, don't you think?

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Wow, there goes the friendly neighborhood....  Tell you what, you all just stay on this thread so the rest of us can live in friendship, support and peace like we used to.  Go back to where you came from and argue it out there.  We welcome insight and knowledge but NOT judgement, and we most certainly do not slander each other.  Play nice kids!

von Cosack Dobermann (not verified)
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Yeah, I understand that and so does everyone else. The constant posts agitating the op to return to be demeaned more and more  is not cool!!! There were posts getting to the facts without the agitation factor that comes with the attitude taught else where. You know exactly what I mean Murry this is an old conversation. I knew the op was misinformed and maybe didn't care but it would have been brought without the bashing & badgering approach. That old approach simply causes folks to get defensive. Brains over brawn, you know how Murry but the others never get it. Compulsion doesn't work all the time, theres lots of ways to get to the truth.                                          Von

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from Murraydobe: This is important information for a newbie trying to find a puppy, don't you think?

Yes, I definitely agree that FACTS are an important issue....it's the judgements, name calling, and general rudeness that I have a problem with. It just makes me feel very uncomfortable, like I'm in the middle of a fight or something that I shouldn't be in. 

I feel that a discussion group should be for that purpose only---discussion.  Right or wrong, up or down, black or white---nobody is going to change the world with comments on a forum.  Why turn everything so negative? 

I welcome anyone to this group, and love to see photos of their dobermans, and hear stories of their experiences, but trying to berate someone just because they dont have the same opinion about something---especially such touchy/contraversial subjects as breeding, ear cropping, and even training practices really has no place here, in my opinion.  Key word: Opinion.  Opinions are like......well, you know.  We all have one.

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nobody is going to change the world with comments on a forum.

 

See, I don't buy that.  *My* world changed a lot based on the various Doberman groups, boards and forums and made me a better breeder. 

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<<it's the judgements, name calling, and general rudeness that I have a problem with.>>

 

Well, I can say I did my best to correct totally untrue "statements of fact" in as neutral a manner as possible.  If I failed, at least I know I did my best.

I will say it looks to me like the rudest people on this thread have been longer term members than Mary, Mary Jo or myself.   At least you're polite, some of the others just look ridiculous playing "nice police" as they're calling people names, making judgements and crude sexist comments, and being just generally rude.  People can't have it both ways-if they're going to preach one method of communication, then they'd better be following that manner themselves.

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I tried to get Deacon's opinion on this topic by letting him read the posts. He looked at the computer screen, then me, let a sigh out and walked off.

von Cosack Dobermann (not verified)
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You know Murry I have only been here a short time but I haven't heard one word spoken with malice or contempt. Now the dt ers show up and its like over where your from you know pink land. Don't spin this off on me Murry you should be bigger than that but maybe not!!! What happened at "Home" did rfr ask you to spread your wings and preach the dt gospel. You know damn well I won't sit idle and have that crap you few preach just fill pages. I know the old goat system and really care less, your pack mentality is a joke you never go anywhere without 2 or 3 right behind you to validate your BS!!!! I agree with what others have said ....go home!!! Theres was no BS here till today! Von 

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<<You know Murry I have only been here a short time but I haven't heard one word spoken with malice or contempt. Now the dt ers show up and its like over where your from you know pink land. Don't spin this off on me Murry you should be bigger than that but maybe not!!! What happened at "Home" did rfr ask you to spread your wings and preach the dt gospel. You know damn well I won't sit idle and have that crap you few preach just fill pages. I know the old goat system and really care less, your pack mentality is a joke you never go anywhere without 2 or 3 right behind you to validate your BS!!!! I agree with what others have said ....go home!!! Theres was no BS here till today! Von >>

 

Again, in the spirit of correcting MISinformation, let me offer these facts.  Glengate has been a member here for 2 years, 3 weeks.  I joined yesterday.  Obviously she's been capable of being a member here without anyone else holding her hand for a good long time. :)

Along the same lines, I signed up for DT on 9-28-2005.  RFR joined on 6-15-2008.  Obviously I didn't need RFR to hold my hand there. and still don't.  BTW-she's not even online these days, due to computer problems.

Where did I do any preaching here?  I just corrected inaccuracies.   

So just more baseless claims completely lacking any merit, accompanied by personal attacks.  But thank you for proving my point about who the rude ones are on this thread!

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Dang... When did the drama bus derail?

Come one everybody, cant we all just get along> 

von Cosack Dobermann (not verified)
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Bye Murry, I haven't talked to you in years so lets just continue that practice. Funny that your one of the few over there I actual agree with most of the time as to does and don't. The others just don't want to learn that trial by fire just doesn't work. You people have exercised that method for years now and the only thing you've got out of it is a reputation of braggerts and bullies. If you can't see that just go on the net and dial the name up, hell theres even some guy with an entire  site created to denounce the forum, gezzzzzzz whats that all about? Oh well, take care your boy looks nice, good luck. Von

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Von, unless I missed something, YOU started everything here because of some personal reason from years ago...  If you don't like murreydobe, or dt, that's fine, but leave it out of here.  She gave you no reason to start jumping on her.  Let's not let this get into an out of control pissing match for no reason.