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3sacrowd's picture
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is just natural, but I've read it doesn't work well with Doberman's.  Why do I yell?  I have a Boston who has become her target to bite, and I loudly yell NO when I see her chasing her around and trying to bite her.  My dog looks at me with a defiant look in her eyes, but usually listens.  So when people advise not to yell at them (because they're sensitive) is it because it makes them prone to be stubborn, or what's the logic for it?   The article said instead of yelling, speak in a firm voice (as long as your dog know's you're the pack leader).  I don't know the difference between yelling "NO" or giving a firm NO.  Is a firm NO in a deeper voice? 

And how do I know yet if my Doberman recognizes me as the pack leader?  She's 10 weeks old ... how can I tell already?  I take her for walks and make sure she stays to my side (which she does okay at, unless she tries to sit for some unknown reason or stops to bite a leaf).  I walk in all doors before her.  I take bones and bowls, etc... away from her and she doesn't mind this at this age, not to say when she gets bigger she's not going to change her mind.  I have started laying her on my lap in a submissive position and touch her paws so she gets used to having her nails clipped (per a suggestion in a dog training video).  And in all things I do, if more are included that I just can't think of right now, I try to be consistant.  At any point I think she's trying to run the show, I stop her.

She does like to spend time by herself when she's out in the yard at play time, just doing her own thing.  I read somewhere that's a dominant thing dogs do.  I have to call to her and entice her to interact and play, and use treats.  Sometimes when I call her to come (maybe 25% of the time) she ignores me.  She might look at me, but then she walks away disinterested like.  I go get her collar at that point and for the next few times we go out she has it on.  Today when I had her at my sons letting his dogs out she not only ignored me but ran from me when I walked in her direction.  That was annoying.  So all day today she's been on the leash when she goes outside.

Okay, I've gabbed enough - thoughts welcomed.

she is only 10 weeks old, she is just a puppy and a baby at that.

You can try things like squirt bottles, rolled up newspaper (not to hit her with) used as noise against your own hand As far as her being dominant and not coming when you call her again she is just a baby. You need to make yourself more fun than any other thing out there. Never call a dog to you and reprimand, punish or do something they hate, instead go get the dog. So when you call your dog to come it is a fantastic thing and they should be praised and attention lavished upon them. They have great games when teaching a young puppy to come when called that I would suggest you try instead of formal come when call or else. Your puppy doesnt know at this point that because she didnt come when called or ignored you today that she was on leash the rest of the time outside.

I have a excellent training book that I recommend to people (I have to go find it for the name) I hope I still have it I let someone borrow it.  It is awesome and one of the best books that Ive ever read. It is used by both competition obedience, agility people to start their puppies for continued success as well as regular every day pet owners just wanting a well trained dog.

3sacrowd's picture
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Olive is 10 weeks, but already as big as the Boston Terrier she's trying to play bite, and her teeth are sharp.  This Boston is always trying to get away because she doesn't like her sharp teeth biting her skinny legs or skin under her neck.   In the big back yard, and she's faster and can get away.  She tries to defend herself, but I guess the Dobie's teeth hurt too much as she ends up running away.  In the house Olive won't let her sit and relax sometimes. 

While I was doing book work in the living room, I looked up and saw her pestering the Boston, and yelled NO, and then put this post up.  Ihave taught her the no command by rolling her over and saying NO, but I didn't do that this time. It was a quick response and yelled NO.  I've read never to let the Doberman bite, even in play, but supposed it applied only to humans.  However, if the Boston doesn't like her play biting, why should she have to be chased and not be able to relax.  I hate to always crate the Boston or Doberman.  I would rather teach them to play appropriately. But I watched a video of a bigger Doberman playing with a younger (3 months old) Doberman, and it was pretty rough on both sides.

I have never punished her when called so that's not why she doesn't come.  She knows her name, and when at my son's she looked at me and chose not to come.  I read that continually calling a dog's name, and them not responding, is teaching them not to respond.  I usually get her collar and if she tries to run, I go get a treat and coax her to come to me to put on the collar. I read that Alpha doesn't go to the dog, the dog comes to the Alpha.  Also, I don't want to chase her down and teach her to run from me.  As I said, I try to be consistant every day to teach her I am the Alpha.

I don't yell at her when she's had accidents in the house.  She hasn't done anything else yet that has been unacceptable.   I play with her when she's not in her crate so there's not much opportunity for her to get into too much trouble.  She's only allowed in the room I'm in (if I'm not playing with her) so I keep an eye on her.  We're fairly bonded so far; she takes walks and travels with me. 

I'm not a new dog owner, and I read a lot on Doberman's and watched many videos.  I just wondered what harm comes by yelling NO at times.  Is it creating insecurity?  What does "Doberman's are sensitive" mean?  Her sensitive look, looks more like stubborness to me.   It's not the same look of sensitivity that my Boston's give.   

I have an excellent video on training that was very helpful for my two Boston's who are three years old, but appreciate names of good books as well. 

I've edited this a lot so forgive any typos.

3sacrowd's picture
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Oops Double post

Red Baron's picture
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Hi 3sacrowd. I understand where your coming from because i hate to admit that i did used to yell at my dogs too. I have learned why this doesn't work. No yelling: It encourages the behavoire or is ignoreed. 'Firm No' is in your low mom tone meaning you mean busninness! but if pup is not trained, it means very little. 

And i'm sure others will chime in.

Dogs do not understand the human verbal language. We can teach them what certaine words mean ie. sit, come, no, down...etc but dogs `listen` to voice-tone and body language. Everyday, you puppy hears the Tv, Radio and his family talking and talking and soon it all becomes background noise that he learns to ignore. 

You have either become background noise to the pup or you taugh him wrong (no offense).

When your puppy barks at the Boston terrier, and you chime in Yelling, (he's in prey mode and prey drive will overcome/ win over all training thus far becuase he hasn't been FULLY trained to listen), your puppy also now believes theres good reason to be barking or chasing in that first place and that your encouraging him in the act (barking, chasing and biting). 

The command NO has not been fully learned by him so he most likely takes it `background noise`. It has also been taugh differently that what youre expecting of him.

I've learned that dogs learn better when they are tough YES (what to do), rather than NO (what not to do).

By rolling the pup on his back and saing NO, you're showing him that every time you say NO, he has to stop what he's doing and rolling over. Why would he stop chasing when its sooooo much fun? and why would he even stop to look at you when thats not what he was taught?

If you want your pup to stop biting, you have literally teach him to stop biting. Not to roll over when you say no.

So when you try to call the pup off of biting, offer treats, toys and a chase game with you! way more fun! Eventually puppy will see you're more fun. Also try supervising their ply time in a small area where you can catch the biting and correct it (stop and say "no-bite", than give treat).

If you dont have time to play, simply seperate the dogs. Changing chasing habits in the future are much harder that dealing with it now. 

I don't know if you have a crate or doggie gates, but they are a MUST:) Helps with potty training, gives the pup a safe place to hide, the house and the dogs a rest.

I also learned not to set the pups up to fail (don't give them oppertunities to get into trouble), so you had a great idea by putting the pup on a leash next to you all (or part of) the day. It shouldn't be viewed as punishment at all! But oppertunities to learn for him, train for you and leave the other dogs in peace. I have done that for potty training, establishing that you're in control of every situation (pack leader) and introducing new things. Leash aren't meant only for outside.

My I recomand the Leerburg website? They explaine puppy training much better than I would, and its an interesting read. i think i've gone through the whole website already. 

I've written a whole book already. Well, hopefully i made sense and you take something from this. All this really helped me understand.

-Mira and the dobe-monster tamer!

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 "NO" is a meaningless word to a dog.  It has too many meanings for them to understand.  You scream NO to get off the couch, you scream NO to stop biting, you scream NO to stop digging, you scream NO to stop jumping on people, you scream NO stop barking, (these are all just examples).

NO has no meaning.  Don't bother using it.  Take it out of your vocabulary completely.

Here is what you do.  If your puppy is doing something you don't like, tell her what you want instead.  Every command should have 1 meaning.  

These are just examples:

DOWN: lie down

OFF: Off the couch

SIT: sit

These are just examples, you can swap the word to be anything.  If you wanted to say CHICKEN and have the dog sit, you can do that.

So you want your puppy to be gentle with your boston?  I get that, I raised a doberman puppy around a cavalier.  When your puppy gets too rough for the boston say, TIME OUT and put her time-out.  30-45 seconds only.  Mostly likely she will go bouncing back to doing what she was doing before.  Say it again, TIME OUT.  And put her in time out.  This time give her the choice.  Play with her chew toy or harass the boston.  If she chooses the chew toy, reward and play with her.  If she goes back to the boston, continue with TIME OUT's until she gets it.  If you have 3-4 time outs in a row, something is not working, probably your timing.  Do not continue the TIME OUTS.  You need her to be successful.  Help her understand that the right choice is the chew toy, not the boston.

Alllllright.....slow down, take a breath. You have a "NORMAL" puppy. She's 10 weeks old and as rnd said, just a baby. And as RedBaron and Harley mentioned, the puppy does NOT speak english. She has not had the time to understand what you want of her nor has she been taught yet. So all this yelling and fussing is just confusing the puppy. All the puppy knows is that the big horse beast thingy is barking at me and I don't know why. Not a way to build the relationship that you want between you and the dog.

At this point in the dogs life, there should be NO corrections given. Nothing has been taught to her so a correction will make no sense to her. If a undesirable behavior happens, you want to redirect to a desirable behavior. Dog's eating the couch? Redirect to chewing her chew bone, for example. Corrections will come later in the dogs life when you're sure that she knows what you expect of her.

If you "cannot" devote 100% of your time to watch the puppy, put the puppy in it's crate. Puppys have a bad habit of getting into trouble the second you turn your eyes away. The good thing is that puppys have two speeds, full ahead and all stop, so when you put them in their box, in short order they'll probably fall asleep. 

Puppys are notorious for exploring their wold with their mouths. I've never allowed my puppys to mouth on me so when they did I would start to teach their obedience using food to get the behaviors I wanted, sit, stay, down...ect. for a few minutes, then play a good (gentle) game of tug of war.  Gentle because you don't want to hurt their mouth (still a baby). Let her do most of the pulling, you just kinda move the toy around. This will satisfy four objectives, teaching desirable behaviors, make you the "fun" guy, redirecting and pooping out the pup. No, playing tug of war will not turn your puppy into a people eating demon. It is the start of using a toy as a reward though.

As far as the Boston, I would think that he's being seen as a surrogate litter mate. If you've ever seen litters, they bite,wrestle, tumble, play fight and so on. I know that this "baby" I've been talking about weighs around 20 pounds and the Boston may weigh as much but I would think when the adult dog has had enough that the adult will offer a well timed and appropriate correction. Kinda like a mother dog would do to a pup. You'll have to determine how much refereeing is necessary. At the point when either you or the boston can't take it anymore, put the boston up, redirect to OB and play with you. You'll never train that puppy with the other dog in sight. You WILL NOT be the most interesting thing around.

Don't worry about being "pack leader", or as I have put it, top of the totem pole. You are the dominating figure to the puppy. There will be a time that you'll do things that'll keep you on top of said totem pole. None of it is bullying. Walking through the dog, taking the primo spot to sit, stuff like that but nows not that time. Your climb to the top will start with feeding, training and playing. Building a relationship. Keep in mind "BABY".

Google Michael Ellis dog training. There are some free you tube vids giving you an idea of training a puppy. Leerburg has some good vids on training a puppy and aren't that expensive.

You're not alone. All of us who brought in a free running chain saw (doberman puppy) and already had a dog went through this in some way, shape or form. She is normal and THEY DO CALM DOWN!!!!! but they are work...  lol

Gunny

   

The book I was referring to is called "The focused puppy" it is written by Deborah Jones & Judy Keller. It is a training system for raising a great companions & performance dogs. I LOVE this book!! It teaches a strong foundation and builds upon that. I dont have a lot of time to go through training on these list anymore I will leave that to the others, many good suggestions have been made. There are so many FUN ways to teach a puppy to come, ways that excite them and in the end when done right are full proof.

Im not making light of your 10 week old puppy playing to rough with your Boston I understand. I raised my last litter of puppies around a Chihuahua that was 5lb. I agree if you cant constantly watch her using a crate or tethering her to you as you go about your daily chores are best.

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I may be just in a mood, but parts of the replies annoyed me.  However, you all seem to be a good group of people, and surely didn't mean to. 

I already know dogs don't understand English  lol.  To my dogs, No means "Stop" "whatever" the dog is doing, and it works.  I roll them over because I've seen dogs push their pups heads down, and then push them over with their paw if necessary, to their backs.  I also do it because it's in a dog training video from a Certified Animal Behavioralist.  My Boston's "understand" it (use that word with very loose terminology) and  they're only the 25th smartest dog.  Olive is learning; she may forget and go back to the behavior later, but she stops for the time being.

It's not like I'm all the time no NO no NO no nO No no NO no nO no no no NO NO NO...lol, so it's not background noise. I'm am gonna start training her now; she has learned four commands.  I'm not going to play tug of war with her.  I don't want to get into situations where she can eventually win, if I can help it.  The dogs do play tug of war though.  

And a very sincere Thank You for all of the other advise that didn't get on my nerves.  lol.  I mean that.

http://leerburg.com/      One trainer stated, "I am a believer in the saying 'One good Correction is Worth 1,000 Nagging Corrections.' You need to get his attention and he needs to understand that you are not playing with him. [ ... ] When the pup backs off after a correction it is immediately praised and loved up. [ ... ].  It may take 4 or 5 encounters of shaking the pup for it to learn that when you say "NO" he had better stop what he is doing" Personally, I wouldn't shake, but I do Roll the Puppy onto his / her back if they don't listen and give the firm No.  Once submission is shown, I immediately let up and give praise.  

Another trainer said this: http://www.training-your-dog-and-you.com/no-command.html    TIP: Always keep in mind the “rule of three” when dealing with corrections, if you are correcting your dog more than three times for the same behavior, either your timing is wrong, your corrective method is wrong, or your dog doesn’t understand what he is getting the correction for"    

 My dogs always stop when I say No.   If they don't, as I said, they get rolled over; that will continue for now or for so long as it works / is useful.

Thanks so much and I will be back soon, I'm sure.  I enjoy the interaction.  I could just look all this up on the internet - lol, but I'd rather ask and pilfer through the responses.

 

   

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Hey, this article is geared toward my original query, if anyone's interested / hasn't seen it before....

  "I've found that nearly every Doberman I've met thus far has what I'd call a sunny disposition. They're pleased to meet new people and enjoy being pet. They tend to act more gentle towards children and smaller animals than adults, of course. They seem to be very intuitive, even for a dog, and able to sense actual danger rather than raising a big fuss over something insignificant. The downside to this is that they are also somewhat easily depressed if they feel you are upset with or disappointed in them. They've got a strong drive to please and failure seems to get them down in the dumps. It's important to remember that most of the time they're paying attention to your tone, body language and eye contact - they're going to know if you're mad at them - so try and encourage them to try again when they mess up, rather than scold them." here: http://forthelove.hubpages.com/hub/Doberman_Pinscher_Puppy_to_Dog

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I empathize with you completely!  I have a mini doxie as well as my young dobie.  And the done seems to think mouthing on the doxie is the best thing ever.  After a couple days of using my clicker tomark the moment she stops and giving a treat i have been able to add the word stop as a cue and it is working.  Gunny and i needed a way that helped us communicate better and the clicker provided that.  We have since used the clicker to teach many things.  I am traditionally anti-clicker by the way, but she responds best to it than anything else i have tried.

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I empathize with you completely!  I have a mini doxie as well as my young dobie.  And the done seems to think mouthing on the doxie is the best thing ever.  After a couple days of using my clicker tomark the moment she stops and giving a treat i have been able to add the word stop as a cue and it is working.  Gunny and i needed a way that helped us communicate better and the clicker provided that.  We have since used the clicker to teach many things.  I am traditionally anti-clicker by the way, but she responds best to it than anything else i have tried.

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If what you're doing worked, you wouldn't have come here asking these questions, right or wrong?   I'm also curious as to why you wouldn't want your dog winning tug of war?  I don't mean this as an offensive thing, but maybe you're looking too much into dominance theory.  A dog "winning" tug of war is an excellent confidence boost, and keeps them continuing to want to play.  For drivier dogs, this then turns into a fantastic training reward, and an incentive for the dog to work harder.

Alpha rolling, even when speaking of "wild" dogs (which to me, makes about as much sense as watching caveman videos to understand human behavior) is not something that is done as a "correction".  When your dog submits, that's the equivelent of him saying "Ok, go ahead, get it over with".  He is submitting out of fear of you hurting him.  It's not something that's approrpriate to do with a pet dog, and especially not on a puppy.  This is a great way to break your dogs trust in you, and I would seriously advise against it.  Dominance training is very dated, and most every good traininer in the country stopped using it decades ago after realizing that there are significantly better options when it comes to  training.  The best dogs in the country are typically trained with much more positive results, and as a result, the dog is overall happier, and works better.  There's reasons for this.  A "trainer" making a comment on a post is not necessarily gospel... here is Ed Frawly, the OWNER of Leerburg, talking about how dangerous and stupid alpha rolls are, along with Michael Ellis, one of the most respected working trainers in the country:

 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-15QnSF_tZ8

Long story short, alpha rolling is the human equivelent of you making a mistake, and someone puts a gun to your head and say "I'm going to pull the trigger".  How much would you then trust that person?  Submissive dogs will not retailate generally, but a drivier dog will not have a problem taking a chunk out if given the opportunity.  It's a great way to get bit, and it's a great way to "break" your dog.  Please, if nothing else, stop doing this immediately.  It has no place in proper training.

 

Topics like this are the reasons why I never come back to these sites anymore, becase people ask questions, and every good answer here "annoys you".  RND, Gunny,  and Harley probably have some of the best trained dogs you would want to meet, and the replies here are pretty spot on.  I would (and have) take training advice from all of them without question.  Yet you're saying they "annoy" you... I don't get it.

Thank you Kevin, Exchange of ideas is what training is all about. That's why "trainers" watch each other, to see mistakes. It could be something as small as the trainer's posture to as large as timing. But we take this criticism and forgo our egos for the benefit of the dog.

It's all about the dog, period!

Gunny

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^^Agreed, and you're welcome.  We ALL have something we can learn from each other, that's what makes these site's so great.  I've learned quite a bit from simply filming myself in training sessions, then you can watch back and say "Oh, jeeze, look what I'm doing there, never realized".  I look at dog training as a kinda "If you're not moving forwards, you're moving backwards" kinda thing.

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Mizbulls: I hadn't thought about using a clicker but if it works, that would be a great suggestion.  I also plan on getting the book mddoberman suggested. 

Kevin:  Thanks for your opinion.  I'm sure Harley and Gunny are able to speak for themselves.  I meant no offense to Harley or Gunny.  I thought that was obvious when I started out by saying, I must be in a mood, and concluded by saying, they seemed like a nice group of people.  However, I did express my reaction to the extra unneeded advice which seemed a tad condescending, and I found it annoying and not to the point of my posts.  EX:  dogs do NOT speak human.  

I didn't ask for opinions on Alpha rolling either and I don't agree they're "Dangerous and Stupid".  Because ... I rarely have to use the technique, but I do use it.  I won't have to use it as my dog ages into an adult, because she will "know" (again, using that term loosely) what No means (stop doing whatever you are doing when I say No) by that time.  

I don't think of my dogs as animal Homo Sapiens, so the comparison doesn't work well for me. However, if I were to use that comparison and apply it to the situation, people alpha roll each other verbally all the day long. 

I appreciate your opinions, just don't expect me to agree with them all.    I do intend on coming back.   I enjoy the interaction even if it differs from my opinions.

Sidenote:  I got my dog's ears untapped today, after the 1st (only ONE) taping, and they are standing up already!!  She looks like a princess.  I will have to put up a picture when I get a chance.  I do have to say, that just like my grandchildren, I have the best looking Doberman ever. lol

And if you don't agree with ear cropping, well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that as well...

Have a great day.  We're enjoying nice showers here in the Midwest.

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Alpha rolls being dangerous is not opinion.  Your dog winning tug of war being bad is not opinion.  Dominance theory being dated, relatively innefective, and dangerous is not opinion.  These are facts, backed by decades of reasearch & experience.  I'm sorry you felt offended by the above, I'm not sure why it was offensive per-se, but anyways, I would just encourage you to keep learning, I'd hate to see you down the road realize that you caused some unneeded stress to your dog, and as a result, everyone suffers.  All we want is what's best for the pooches here, sometimes people can be a bit blunt, yes, but it's exremely rare from my few years on this site that I have seen anyone, ever, being deliberately mean to someone.  It's not that kind of crowd here for the most part.  If you feel comfortable with dominance theory, I do understand why you would want to continue down that path, but I would also urge you to do some research on why these methods are generally no longer used.  Some of the TV trainers still use this stuff, and unfortunately, once you begin to really understand canine behavior and phsychology, you realize that the things they are doing on these tv shows can actually be quite dangerous.  The assumption, however, is that they are popular, and have a tv show, so they must know what they're doing.  

 Once it was realized how much more effective other methods were, nearly all of the best trainers switched over.  They realized that they had happier, better behaved, more willing to work dogs that all around had a better life.  Training was cut into a fraction of the needed time, things are learned faster, and dogs are less worried to make a mistake.  Alpha rolls ARE dangerous, and giving these kinds of overly harsh corrections (we have to think in terms of dog, not human, I know you don't like that, I'm sorry.  For the dog, alpha rolls are EXTREME corrections) CAN shut dogs down, as they become afraid to make mistakes.  The problem is, most people wouldn't realize the difference unless they saw some side by side training.  They still think "my dog is happy, well behaved, etc.".  But it's just not the same, trust me.  Dobermans are incredibly smart, and the second he makes the connection that the alpha roll is a result of bad behavior, he very well can become so scared of making a mistake that he will just shut down.  Happens much more often than people realize.

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I have to agree with you Kevin, like many others, I watched the TV trainers and was all "I'm going to be the pack leader, and do the Alpha roll cause look at how well it works for them!"  Was I ever wrong.  Dante doesn't accept it, and feels like I'm just wrestling with him when I'm trying to be stern and "dominant".  So I did my reserach, here and other places and saw that it's such a dated training method, I just removed it from our lives and it has been so much better without it.  I've also heard, correct me if I'm wrong, that since dobermans have such long, thin backs that it could actually damage their spine by doing so.  

But to each their own.

E. 

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I didn't mean to sound condescending.  It just happens that way when I type things out.  Like what's been said above, it is all about the dogs.  And we want to see you successful with your new puppy.

The original question was about dobermans being sensitive.  And the answer is,  yes they are.  That's what makes them so in tune with their handler.  I have a super drivey exuberant dog (you should see him run through tunnels during agility!), but he gets frustrated really easily when he doesn't get it right. He doesn't need me punishing him and adding to his frustration.  He wants to be right!  We just need to guide him and help him figure it out.  

If you continue with dominance training methods (which is not scientifically backed), you will either have a fearful aggressive dog or a dog who it completely shut down.  I have worked with an Austrian Shepard who was so shut down he could not be taught SIT for a month.  He was petrified of humans and would shut down quickly during training.  New people couldn't look at him.  It took MONTHS for this dog to recover, and he will never be people-friendly dog. This was not a feral dog, BTW, he was raised around humans.

In regards to tug, there is scientific evidence that show that you should let your dog win tug occasionally. Professor John Bradshaw has been doing research for the last 25 years.  He wrote a GREAT book called, In Defense of Dog.  You should pick up and read it, just wonderful.  

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There are lots of different methods and styles used in training dogs...some work well for specific breeds and some dont work so well for others.  Personally, I wouldnt even want to try to alpha-roll a doberman that needed correction.  It produces the most negative feelings and emotions that dog can handle.  Submission shouldnt be brought on with brute force from the human that is expecting 100% trust from that dog.

And about not ever letting the dog 'win' at tug?  I dont agree with that.  How much fun can it be to a dog to play with the human if it knows every single time it will never win?  Teach the dog to 'drop it' or 'give' when you want to keep the toy, but once in a while, let him win the game just to keep it interesting to him.

Just thought I'd toss in my 2-cents here on this discussion. 

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I want to thank Kevin for the visual of the roll over likened to a gun to the head, I would like to use that analogy with the rottweiler rescue I work with, it definitely explains the effect it has on the dog, a large strong fearful dog is not a happy dog and not a dog anyone wants to come into contact with, thanks Kevin.

As for the NO think back to when you were growing up if your mom/dad or whoever said No in that "if I have to say it again I will come check on you" type of no and then compare it to the NO you would get when you were about to be sent to your room those verbal changes in tone told us all which one meant business. A "yelling" no means you are bothered, annoyed etc. the stern toned NO means "that's IT you are now....." yelling is a higher verbalization. My dogs also know what NO means and my cats do too, I can correct my cats misbehaving in the kitchen from my spot in the living room just by a look or a finger point.

And at 10 weeks you really just have a puppy, let your puppy LOVE life, let everything you are teaching be fun, you can still teach sit and stuff just make it fun and not about correction, so if your baby sits - GREAT but if your baby doesn't - she doesn't nothing lost. You want to reward good behavior. And attention span will be short so don't expect but a few seconds of doing what you ask, cause she's on puppy time and that means experience it all - all at once......sounds like she wants to be a baby and you want her to be in 3rd grade already. Just enjoy her zest for life and reward her when she DOES what you want.

3sacrowd's picture
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For the love of all that's holy....  I don't hold that Dominance Theory is "outdated".  Are there other methods to train your dog (like the dog clicker) that will be as, or more effective.  Certainly.  But its not hurt any of the dogs I've had, and isn't going to hurt my Doberman. 

Just in the last few days Since I've started posting (just so you know) my Doberman has been Getting Along with my Boston, and *gasp* I've "Gently* rolled her on her back each and every time she's chased the Boston too much, and told her a firm No (Misbullis: hadn't had time to get the clicker yet); and immediately given her praise, "Good Girl!".  And *gasp again* it's worked!  She's not been hurt, and unbelievably enough, her spines not been broken (ROFLMAO at that one). 

It's not done abusively, or negatively, etc... but as gently as a mother would do her own pup, and I do it much more rarely as the days goes on ... she is Willingly Submitting when I tell her No now.  Hmm.  If it aint broke, don't fix it, as my momma used to tell me.

Are any of you reading my posts or just posting to get postive feed back from other posters and make yourselves feel good?

Take confidence in knowing that all of you who believe contriwise, are posting to the Choir, because you all lost my respect by your lack of Good Judgement and Common Sense.  So puff up like a Peacock, and break your arms patting yourself and one another on the back. lol

I will skim Confidently RRRRight Over your posts, and read those who offer non-condescending suggestions and don't toot their own horn just to hear it.  I Don't need your approval to be confident, as you all appear to need each others to feel secure.

I will continue to come back, and maybe by doing so, can draw more readers and posters to these boards, who may not have the "spine" (when you verbally Alpha Roll me, my spine doesn't break - haha) to stand up to you when you high jack their threads, and try to turn them into something totally different than that were intended.  Shame on you All.

Again, Thank You to All Others of You who've given suggestions in a Common Sense way, that were to the point, and didn't highjack my thread

PS:  Thanks for all of the belly laughs and the slight rise in blood pressure - Keeps the old blood circulating! :)

Best wishes.  It's a good morning!

" I don't know the difference between yelling "NO" or giving a firm NO.  Is a firm NO in a deeper voice? "

"And how do I know yet if my Doberman recognizes me as the pack leader?"
 

These were a couple of your first questions. If you don't know the answers to these questions, what makes you think you know what good training is as opposed to bad training?  The answer to my question is, you don't!

Gunny

P.S. Now there's condescending for you! It's not just a feeling.

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Wow, that was an interesting turn of events...  If you're not open to accepting help, why bother asking?  

Anyways, best of luck, I hope everything works out for you and your pooch.  You can always try out a different doberman site, but you're not really going to hear anything differently than what was said here already.  I think you're misunderstanding about any "condescending" going on here.

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p.s. as far as needing each other to feel more secure, many of us here are friends, know each other well, and talk daily outside of this website.  What you call an "ego boost" is really just a vote of confidence, because we know each other's strengths & weaknesses :-) 

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Hey now, how is it that by me saying that I've heard somewhere that it can injure their spines and you come back with the most condescending and rude comments?  You just seem like a big bully, using insults as a way to cover up the fact that we are telling you what you are doing is harmful but you don't want to hear it.  In no way was I being condescending, if you will actually read my post, you'll see that I had thought dominance theory was the way to go, but I got informed and decided I didn't want to risk it for my baby.  Even if there is a small chance of harming my dog, I don't take those chances.  

And you may be gently alpha rolling a tiny puppy, but when that same pup is 40 or 50 pounds, it's not so easy.  

I was really hoping you'd be someone to listen and at least consider what you are hearing.  But obviously you are so intent on your way of doing things, that any advice is going in one ear and out the other.  

We are all flawed people, and we all need advice on things from time to time.  But if you're going to ask for it and then not take the advice giving, or at least do your own research on the matter, then you are a class A fool. 

E. 

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For what it's worth, I will -occasionally- use an alpha roll, as an absolute last-ditch listen-up.  I have never had to use it on Koko; he's never come close to screwing up bad enough that I thought that level of correction/warning was necessary.  The gun to the head really is a good analogy.  It can occasionally be useful for a dog (usually one acquired as an adult) that absolutely refuses to respect you - just as people sometimes need severe corrections, such as going to prison, before they straighten up.  But using it for regular correction will damage your relationship with the pup over time.  No, she won't become terrified of you and try to bite you immediately.  But as someone else said, if you were to take two dogs of the same level of intelligence and similar personalities, and train one with regular alpha rolls and other dominance theories, and train the second dog with newer, more positive methods, I promise the second dog will have a stronger bond with you and behave better, respond more quickly and eagerly, etc.  That's not to say the first dog will be a quivering wreck who would sooner bite you than sit on command...  but that doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake to train with those methods.

 

ETA:

If you really want to work with pack/alpha mentality, fine.  Actually look at packs of dogs!  (Not wolves, we are not raising dober-wolves.)  How often does the alpha dog actually roll and pin his/her subordinates?  I've spent a lot of time with dogs over the years, and personally, the only time I've seen it is when they really, REALLY pissed off the alpha...  as in, attacked him/her, usually a bid for dominance.  NOT just because they did something the alpha didn't like.  It's a slap-down, not a general daily teaching method.  Puppies will often roll-and-pin one another, but that's not a real alpha roll, it's play, learning the general motions that will become real when they mature, just as kittens will pounce mom's tail but not actually mean to 'kill' it.  Most corrections from the alpha come in the form of looks or body lanaguage, bodily pushing them out of the way, escalating into vocalizations, and if it gets severe, they may nip or get physical in other ways, but rarely if ever a full roll.

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I have only read the snippits my email sends, but some of you have made an alpha roll sound like a full body slam!  lol.  As I said, I'm looking for the members posts who've responded respectfully and helpfully, not highjacked my posts. I refuse *said with my nose in the air* to read any others.  I have seen many members who get my drift. 

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^^You have to think in terms of DOG.  To a dog, yes, it IS a full body slam.  It's not the physical part, it's the psychological part that you have to think about.  You're not physically hurting him, you're psychologically hurting him.  To the dog, it makes you look unstable, untrustworthy, and it WILL make him less operant and willing to problem solve. You may find yourself in a position one day where your dog is confused, and just shuts down out of fear of making a mistake.  This is not what you want in a dog.  I've seen it, and it's not pretty.

What I don't understand, is you linked us to a leerburg page, with an article written by some random person who made a comment claiming to be a trainer, but when I posted the response by the owner of that site, as well as a highly respected nationally recognized trainer, you just kinda blow it off.  Just doesn't make any sense...

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An update.  About the time I quit remarking on this post, I also quit rolling my doberman because she started obeying the command, 'no'.  Within a very short span of time, she learned 'no' and stopped the behavior in the given situation.  She listens very well.  She has no issues with being fearful.  She comes when called etc... She has no issues with whining constantly, barking for no reason, or any other problems I've read that owners may have issues with.  I know she's still just a baby so there's lots of time for issues to develop, but so far so good.

The only down side so far is her geting car sick on long drives.  Instead of going to the car, she'll go get in her cage :)  Kinda cute.  Once to the car she does get in, and gets rewarded by playdates with other's dogs.   So far she's been curious and playful with new dogs, not fearful or aggressive.  

Things have been hectic so I've only trained her with the basic commands of sit, stay, laydown, cage, no, come,  and speak.  More indepth training is on the agenda.  She's a beautiful, well mannered animal, and I am happy to be a doberman owner.

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that's great, sorry about the car sick thing, some dogs just can't ride long we had one that could ride for about 30 minutes but that was it.....

get ready for the doberteens when your smart girl forgets everything, so glad I don't have to go through that......

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ah, the doberteens... boo.  lol the good thing is the beginning of doberteens should coincide  with summer (and more intensive training).  for now, i will enjoy the good times! she's so tall already!  from the floor to her shoulders she is 25 inches! she has started standing on her hind legs and putting her paws on the kitchen counter. :)  i have to watch her the whole time she's out of her crate -  even tho she's a good puppy, she's still a puppy! :).  she doesnt mind going outside in the rain or even the snow. the cold doesnt bother her but she's never out in it for longer than 5 minute.  did you check out my pictures?  i put a few new up.  sorry for the lack of capital letters...phone post.  

happy holidays everyone!

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I have to say as a prior dog owner, I agree with the fact that the verbal word itself has no meaning!! my uncle's dog is trained to come in the house with a finger pointed at the door and the word Tomo (Toe-moe)....and when I had my last dog if he jumped up and I simply said down, he would not get down, I had to firmly say down and point to the floor!! My aunt trains dogs part time and ALWAYS teaches them hand signals as well as voice commands. If she puts her hand out and closes it into a fist (much like you would make an A in sign language) her dogs automatically sit, she doesn't even have to say anything, they simply know what the signal means and obide by it! Also yelling isn't going to do much, esp. with a puppy! a 10 week old puppy isn't much different than a year old baby! If you yell at a baby what will happen, usually you will just startle them or make them cry, they don't understand why you are yelling simply that you are doing it, if you use a firm voice and shake your finger back and forth, they are more likely to respond and do what was asked of them!! When they say pets are like children they arent lying and a dobie is just about the closest you can get to a human child!!

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I currently use hand signals and verbal prompts for Sit, Stay, Down, Up, Come, Roll Over, etc...  I don't use a hand command for "treat", "no", or calling their names, etc...; they respond appropriately.  It's them getting used to the fluctuations in our voices and the tones used when we say things.  I had a friend who got my dog to sit by saying it in Spanish, on the first try.   We had a good laugh at that.

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Update:  My puppy is a 9-month-old, obedient puppy / dog.  She has not entered her Doberteens yet - I have to say I'm not looking forward to that stage. 

I'm getting a great book about using clicker training and a e-collarfrom a friend at the end of this month.  That's next on the agenda. 

There have been no attempts to mount over the fence.  I am So Excited about that.  When watching her out in the yard, that idea doesn't seem to cross her mind.  She sees squirrils and other dogs in the distance, etc.. and is content to look and bark a couple of times.  The neighbors on every side have dogs she interacts with.  She's also been introduced to the neighbors on two sides, and I have began taking her to ball games.  She barks at larger dogs there but I "no bark" and instantly "treat" her when she's stopped.  It seemed she barked after that, just so she could stop and get a treat!  I may have to rethink my training method on this one.  haha. 

I plan to introduce her to all of my neighbors at some point on our walks, once the weather warms up permenantly (it seems like winter is going to last forever...).

She has started attempting to stick her nose to my plate when I'm eating.  I don't think it's cute.  I back her up with my elbow, foot, etc... (whichever happens to be closest to her at the time) but haven't officially read what to do when she does that. 

She (and the other two dogs)have dug two holes in the yard looking for moles.  I treated the yard for underground critters, and go outside with them for "outside" and play. 

Let's see, what else.  I recently taught her (with the help of one of my Boston's) how to descend and ascend a full flight of stairs (basement).  I prompted her by telling her Doberman's are Fearless! :) An amazing thing happened during training.  My wonderful Boston appeared to purposefully model going down and back up the stairs, helping me train!  It was such a Cute surprise.   She went down and up once, and sat by her.  I said, "See, it's not that hard"! and laughed.  Dobie tried to put one paw on the lower step and then chickened out.   I asked my Boston to "show her again".  The second time my Boston ascending the stairs, sat down right beside her, licked her in the mouth, and then went back down the stairs, while Dobie pup intently watched her.  It was The Cutest Thing!  (This is the Boston she chased and still likes to roughly play with on occasion).  After that, my Dobie descended the steps!  Slowly at first, but within four trainings she goes down on her own.  Of course they ALL received Lots of Praise and Affection! I was one Proud Momma.

I have a crabapple tree with seed that are toxic to pets.  I'm planting shrubs in that area (if they can/will grow there), so when the crabapples fall to the ground, they will be more hidden from view.

Well, that's about it, except for... 

Love This Dog!

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Hi 3sacrowd,

I've taught my 12mo the 'quiet' command. I know I've taught her, because she also reached the bark for a treat stage. That's still a work in progress, but yes, your Dobe will reach the point where she will bark for treats. It makes perfect sense when you think about it.

My response to that has been to discontinue the treats, and use the firm 'ah' when she disobeys the 'quiet' command. She's pretty good if I'm present, but if I let her out on her own, she will bark sometimes even to get me outside. If she continues barking after the 'quiet' command and a couple of firm 'ah's, she gets a time out inside for a while.

If I'm outside with her, I will also reward her for not barking with a game of tug or fetch. Its impossible to bark with a toy in your mouth.

It doesn't help that my neighbor has two of the most disobedient cavalier king Charles spaniels that bark bark bark at everything and anything (the fact that the owner never walks them, never takes them anywhere, is totally inconsistent etc etc is the cause of this), so I try not to be too hard on mine.

Re the nosing of the plate, I agree- that is not ok! My 12mo, is not allowed with us at meal time as she's just not ready. At 9mo your Dobe is still a pup, and may not be ready for your meal times yet either. Sit/lie staying while you are eating an entire meal may just be too much for your girl right now.

My previous Dobe was taught that annoying ppl during meals, begging etc, was not acceptable, and simply was NEVER rewarded in any way. I made it a rule to totally ignore her while eating. She would be put into a lie, stay, and would not be given anything off a plate until the plates were going in the sink and meal was over. If she couldn't stay, she wasn't ready, so I put her outside, or in another room while we ate. Over time she learned that the more quiet and unobtrusive she would be, the greater would be the rewards. The more obnoxious she was, she would get nothing.

She would eventually lie by the camp fire toasting her sides, and the the food would be tossed to her as each person was done with their meal. She never had to even get up from the fire! She would do this all night and be in total bliss. Even friends who weren't 'dog ppl' would toss her some steak. This took years of training though.

Your Dobe will get this way eventually, but just work on her sit, stays till she's ready. In my experience this can take some time.

Be careful around bigger dogs and stairs. If there are a lot of them, they can easily injure their backs. I had this occur with a ridge back x I had many years ago. Give her plenty of time to learn that one.

I'm no gardener, but if I had a toxic to animals plant in my yard the trusty chainsaw would remove all doubt. There is just no room for mistakes when it comes to the health of my dog. Especially at the pup/juvenile stage.

Yes, Dobes are a lot of work in the beginning, but you really do get out of them, what you put into them, and more. As the future opens up and you reap the rewards for your efforts you will both be proud of what you have accomplished.

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Hi Oz, I'm also working on her not barking with "No Bark" or "Ah Ah" and reward with treats.  She's so stinking smart she barks on purpose so I can say, no bark, and she can get a treat.  But she's improved with the treats removed.  She was barking at a neighbors cat and I was about 25 feet away and told her 'no bark' and after about 5 barks just to show the cat what for, she stopped.  I was very impressed.  She's a great animal and I love her sooo much.  She's actually not a big barker.  We have a yappy neighbor dog who just recently moved in next door; they got into barking contests at first but now she just ignores her.  She barks at things she's unfamiliar with so it really helps to introduce her to everything.  After she's seen it, she ignores it (plastic bag, etc...).  She's improving on her guarding too, which I'm very happy to see.  She is working on increasing her Dobie Sense (Spidey Sense) skills.  :)  Did I already say, I love this dog!?!

Teaching her the stairs was just in case of a tornado, I didn't want to have to pull her down.  We actually had sirens going off in a neighboring town the other day so we went down for safe measure.  She did okay down, but took forever back up.

The tree is toxic but it took me a couple of years to figure out what was making my 2 Boston's puke foam up on a few occasions.  They don't learn because it happens too far after the fact for them to figure out what's causing it.  I found some Repel Dogs and Cats at the store I'm going to try.  For now I've fenced up the area around the tree, but the apples only drop off in the fall so there's nothing toxic right now...I just wanted to see if they would tear down the fence (cheap stuff) or not, and they've all left it alone.

Will practice with the sit / lay down while I'm eating.  Thanks for the advice.  I feel silly for not thinking of that.

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Update: Olive is still doing great; she hasn't reached the dober-teens yet, being 14 months. I keep an eye on her though; she will try anything she thinks she can pull over on me. It's good for a laugh. She is curious, but easily distracted from unallowed behaviors. We visited and got excellent advice from a lady who specializes in police dog, and other training. Olive adjusts to any situation given time / routine / consistency. I reinforce things she's already been trained to do daily. She's an exception animal. I have to tell the people who bred her "Thank You", still yet time to time, for this amazing dog I've the privilege to own. She's adapted to our very ordinary life. She gets exercise from the large backyard and with walks when I can fit them in, which of course, she loves. I have all kind of people yell out from their car how beautiful she is (seriously, from some people who would not be the type to be yelling from their vehicle; so its odd, and flattering to Olive at the same time) or people stop their vehicle to see and admire her, so that's a compliment for sure. My one wish is that our town had a a huge dog park where I could let her run full speed for long lengths; that would be amazing. I might check into that but I'm not optimistic about it becoming reality. So that's it. No big surprises. Just a, we're doing good post.

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Update: Olive still doing great. I go back and forth with the idea of giving her over to some police department because I feel she's wasting her life and talents by living our ordinary life. I feel very strongly after having owned her for 2 years (1st Dobermann ever), that these dogs should not be bred for a typical life. They're too smart, beautiful & talented. I know that will never happen; there are too many people willing to have them for their own reasons. I'm very glad when I've read about breeders being picky about owners. Please continue. This is a special dog, and the great genetics should be carefully monitored and handled. For those considering this breed ... They are a working dog, and I think they would be happiest (only from my experience with my dog) as a police dog or service animal. IMHO, if your lifestyle can't accommodate their need for a job to do, find another breed. I don't think families should get them as protection animals. Do more research and find a more suitable dog (I can't offer suggestions because I haven't done the research). This is only my opinion and I'm only giving it because I have so much respect for my own dog's intelligence and innate drive.

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I believe our life was ordinary before we became a doberfamily.  Not so much anymore.  Our boy has brought so much energy, fun and adventure to our family that me makes me want to be better every day to honor him.

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MommaL: Love. The. Profile. Picture! Lol. I'll have to post my Doberman Christmas picture (after I re-read how to do it). ☺