'Insulting' a puppy's immune system?

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D and Evie's picture
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Well, this may open a can of worms here but here's the situation: earlier this week I gave Evie(almost 10 months old now) her usual regimen of Heartguard followed by Frontline Plus a few days later. Shortly thereafter she got what appers to be demodex mites attacking her lower eyelid in one eye(it's rapidly improving).

 

While researching her eye condition I, and I could be wrong here, correlated the mite attack with the medications affecting her immune system. This document was of particular interest to me.

 

To further my research in the matter I was wondering if any of you also experience any odd happenings after giving your pups preventative medications? Lethargy, non-eating or anything else out of the ordinary.

 

Also, if anyone has gone with the holistic approach to your pups health I'd certainly love to hear about that as well.

 

Thanks so much. 

laith's picture
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Sorry, I haven't heard much at all about it. I use Heartguard and Frontline and have seen no problems! 

Dabbles's picture
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When Brinks was a pup I used a topical (Advantage something??) plus a heartworm pill.  I had him on a schedule where he got the topical then 2 weeks later got the heartworm.  2 months in a row he got really lethargic after the topical so our vet switched him to another topical.  That cleared up the groggies.

Now I have both Brinks & MiLady on Trifexis (sp?) which is a combo pill of heartworm, regular wormer & flea & tick meds.  It does nothing for mosquitos, but the vet said that nothing she's ever tried really repells those little buggers...  I was concerned about giving them worm meds (not the heart worm, the other one) every month but she explained that it would take care of any little problems before they became big ones.  It's been 4 months now & neither has had any reaction at all.

If you suspect Demodex, she should really have a vet see her.

As far as there being a sensitiviy to a certain product, that is possible. When the vet sees her for the possible demodex you can talk about heartworm products

For the holistic thing, Better life through chemistry. lol

jeshykai's picture
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I don't know how I feel about the document you shared.  I don't like it when someone is declaring something to be true, with no scientific reasonings or statistics to back it up.  Mange being caused by vaccinations?  Seems absolutely ludacris to me.  The times that I have seen mange presented is from stray animals that have had no medical care.  At the bottom of the article it lists these associations, but who was the author of the statement?  Why are there no authors listed?  I clicked back and saw that the pdf is from a supplement company.  This is not a place you would want to be looking for information, especially with no authors listed, no science, no statistics.  It's just simply trying to sell you on a product with made-up information.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26949--,00.html

"Sarcoptic and notoedric mange mites spread to new hosts through direct body contact or by transfer from common nests and burrows. Stages in the life cycle include the egg, larva, 2 nymphs and the adult. The parasite lives and burrows in the skin layers. Fertilized females deposit eggs as they tunnel through the skin, and the eggs hatch in 3 to 4 days. Males complete their development in 13 to 16 days, females in 18 to 23 days. Fertilization apparently takes place when the female is in its final stage of development."


There is no indication that mange is an immune-related issue.  I personally, over my many years of animal experience, different product usage at different vets, have never seen nor heard of their being a correlation of heartguard and frontline causing a lowered immune system.  Frontline is designed to make the skin undesirable for the tick to latch on and repels fleas as well so they do not stay on the dog to breed and multiply.  Heartguard is a hook worm dewormer and treats against heartworms.   

If you choose to do the holistic approach I would highly highly HIGHLY recommend you at the very LEAST check your dog's titers for rabies, distemper, and parvo.  Thereis no holistic remedy or treatment that can prevent her from any of these serious diseases.  Were she to get bit by a raccooon or get in a dog fight or somehow bite a human she would automatically be quarantined for possibly exposing others to rabies.  Parvo you can contract at any age and it is very serious.

Hope my information made you think a little more.  The loss of hair around the eye could certainly be from mange, but it also could be from a simple staph infection (bacteria) requiring a dose of antibiotics.

Sometimes modern medicine is the only thing that is going to treat and cure your animal.  I understand the desire to use more "natural" remedies, but some treatments simply do nothing but act as a placebo.  Keep doing your research though, and look for documented proof.  Those are the companies (if it's a natural product website) that you should be more inclined to trust because they care enough to do the research the FDA currently doesn't mandate the natural supplements, etc, to do at this time (have to love lobbying).

D and Evie's picture
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Thanks much for the comments so far.

 

@Dabbles -- interesting, I'll speak to my vet about the combo pill.

 

@gun_slinger -- yep, if the condition doesn't clear totally in a day or two she'll go to the vet.

 

@jeshykai -- yes, I'm aware the source of the document was from a person that sells something -- her bio is here. I've tried some of her products(green salve, ear wipes and shampo) and have been extrememly impressed, I highly recommend. And, no, I'm not affliated with her company but the staff at the natural pet food store that I frequent also speak highly of them(for whatever that's worth). That's what drove me to her opinion.

 

Additionally, as far as myself *thinking a little more* -- I believe that I am. I'm asking a question to a forum with people who care for the same breed of dog. And, for the record, I'm not anti vaccine by any stretch and frankly I'm unsure where you got the idea that I was.

 

Thanks so much.

jeshykai's picture
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That wasn't meant as a put down, I'm sorry you saw it that way.

The document you shared was anti vaccine and so I spoke on it. You asked for opinions, I gave you mine. I personally don't value a company that makes statements with no proof. As a scientist, I find it frustrating as it is nit fair to the public to sell things or discuss things with no backing.

Just because I disagreed with the holistic approach doesn't mean I am not supportive or rude. This is a place where many questions are answered with opinions and I was honest in sharing mine.

Lady Kate's picture
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Jess. As usual your comments are taken with gratitude and much appreciation.. I hope you will continue to be a source of constant reassurance and experience.

I for one, look for each of your posts as I always learn something and file it under KEEP FOR FUTURE REFERENCE.

A heartfelt thank you from me and Sofia

D and Evie's picture
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"There is no indication that mange is an immune-related issue."

 

 

  1. Most healthy dogs have a small number of demodex mites on their skin, having acquired the mites from their mother within days of birth. 
     
  2. The mite spends all four stages of its life cycle on the skin, residing in hair follicles and, to a lesser extent, sebaceous glands. These mites usually are not a problem unless they exist in large numbers, a condition known as demodicosis. It is not fully understood why some dogs develop demodectic mange while others do not, but genetics and immunosuppression play a role. 
     
  3. Many infections occur during puppy-hood between 3 to 18 months of age (this is referred to as juvenile onset demodicosis). This form appears to be linked to immune system dysfunction and is thought to have a genetic basis so it is recommended that these animals (as well as their parents) be spayed or neutered.

Source

 

 

What causes demodectic mange?
Demodectic mange, sometimes just called "demodex", is caused by the demodectic mange mite, a parasite which lives in the hair follicles of affected dogs. Under the microscope, this mite appears shaped like an alligator with 8 legs. All dogs (and many humans) have a few of these mites on their skin. As long as the body's immune system is functioning, these mites cause no harm. 

 

Source

 

 

Adult-onset demodicosis characteristically occurs when there is an underlying suppression of the immune system

 

Source

 

Fail.

jeshykai's picture
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Fail?

You can find information on the internet, that's great.

Wolfgirl_121's picture
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@ D and Evie~ I can see how you may have felt Jess was being rude... but she apologized... so there is absolutely no need to be rude. This forum is a wonderful place where people with questions can pose them and other people can speak their mind without being attacked for it. We all love you and want to see this potential problem with Evie solved. So... my advise is to see if it gets better... if not, take her to a professional.

 

@ Jess~ We all love you and value your opinions.

D and Evie's picture
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I appreciate your comment Wolfgirl and, yes, this thread became a total mess. But I will say this: it is, indeed, extremely offensive and insulting for someone to suggest that I am somehow following a course of action that puts my dog's life at risk for simply asking a question. I tend to think that anyone would feel the same way had her comments been directed at them.

 

darth206's picture
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Evie's pictures are so cute. I especially like the Princess Leia one and how did you take that night time one?

rgreen4's picture
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Please, everyone. Let's all understand that at times, we can post things that when viewed by the member doing the posting are not intended to be offensive, but when viewed by the reader, can be construed that way. Sometimes our passion for the dog gets in the way of our interaction and it becomes abrasive, but unintentionally so.

Let us remember that the mites that cause mange are endemic in our world. It is not only malnutrition that can cause them to gain an upper hand, but stress can as well.

Has anyone considered that the possible reason the gathering of mites was because they could possibly have been fleeing the Frontline.