Bump on my Dobbie's Head?

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Andrew87's picture
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Hello!

I just bought my Doberman today he is about 14 weeks old. Anyways he is awesome but he has a lump on his head between his two ears. I know the puppies usually have this lump but it seems a little big. The vet who I saw said he didn't know dobermans ever had bumps on their head but he thinks its cartilage. Have any of yuo ever seen/heard of this and know if it will go away as he grows?
Thanks for the help!

KevinK's picture
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Did you ask the breeder if it's normal?   That would be my first stop with any concerns, since you just got the pup. 

Andrew87's picture
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Yes, he said it is normal. The other pups there also had a similar bump. I was just alarmed when some vet i went to today said he never saw that kind of bump. But he also said he was unaware dobermans have bumps on their heads as puppies so perhaps that is a lack of experience.

Dabbles's picture
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Or, are you talking about the "dobie knot"?  Drat - I was looking for a photo of Brinks that would show what I mean.  He has a very pronounced one!  I'll keep searching

rgreen4's picture
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I have never heard it called the Dobie's knot, other breeds have it as well. I have heard it called the intelligence bump, which in the case of Dobies is well named.

Here is a photo of Princess when I was picking her up. It is plainly visible between her ears, it is actually a ridge on the top of the skull, starting about half way back and rising to it maximum at the back up the skull. I think it gets larger as the get older, and is also more prominent on males. Red's is very pronounced, but I don't have a photo of him that shows it very well.

Lady Kate's picture
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Yup.. the 'smart bump' there's a picture of Rocky here somewhere.. ( his mom calls him a unicorn)Completely natural and not to worry!!

Sofia gets one when she's a little peeved or upset about something.Welcome to the forum.

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I will try and post some pictures up tomorrow of my puppy so you guys can check it out. Drove about 300miles today and had to work and keep an eye on the new baby :) haha. luckily i work from home :P)

Dabbles's picture
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FOUND IT!!!  I just couldn't remember what it was called since we always just called it a dobie knot...  Now this is just if it is a bony mass.  If it is soft or can be moved around under the skin that would be something different & should definitely be checked out by a vet.

I was checking on the calendar kids & did a search on DT.  As soon as I saw the name of the crest I did a Homer Simpson DOH!!  & hit my forehead.  Thank you DT


This is copied from Wikipedia:

A sagittal crest is a ridge of bone running lengthwise along the midline of the top of the skull (at the sagittal suture) of many mammalian and reptilian skulls, among others.

The presence of this ridge of bone indicates that there are exceptionally strong jaw muscles. The sagittal crest serves primarily for attachment of the temporalis muscle, which is one of the main chewing muscles. Development of the sagittal crest is thought to be connected to the development of this muscle. A sagittal crest usually develops during the childhood of an animal in conjunction with the growth of the temporalis muscle, as a result of convergence and gradual heightening of the temporal lines.

A sagittal crest tends to be present on the skulls of adult animals that rely on powerful biting and clenching of their teeth, usually as a part of their hunting strategy. Skulls of some dinosaur species, including tyrannosaurs, possessed well developed sagittal crests. Among mammals, dogs, cats, lions, and many other carnivores have sagittal crests, as do some leaf eaters, including tapirs and some apes.

Antoinette's picture
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Rusty my last Doberman had a huge one of these. When he was a pup it was there but as he grew it grew along with him. It was so large we called him cone head. When I changed vets - Rusty was around 3- the vet even commented and said it was the largest he had seen - he was quite intrigued by it- he did a few things to see if it was causing Rusty any pain as he said its usually found in older dogs and can cause pain when chewing etc but it didnt bother Rusty at all so the vet said it should not be a problem. The vet had a name for it and reading your comment Dabbles I think that it was a Sagittal crest. Anyway it was very pronunced so much so  at bbqs friends would comment on it .. Rustys was hard like bone.

Ok at 4 Rusty was due for his next check up ( general health) and I thought to myself that maybe I should mention Rustys cone and should we get it looked at -xray this time just to be sure  as it was getting pretty big. It was the bone in the middle of his head and it literally looked like a pointy cone. He was now called Cone head all the time we even had Cone Head sewn into his jacket.

One night I took Rusty running and he came home not quite himself. I knew something was up as he wasnt interested in his dinner scraps. I felt it was his heart but Im only guessing as he was a normal healthy Doberman. But he settled down and went to bed and seemed fine. The next morning he was right as rain and barking away at someone trying to get in the gate. Then he came around the back onto the deck and I could see he was not right and Poor sausage just died. We didnt get an autopsy as I didnt want to put him though that. I still think it was his heart however the vet thinks he had a bleed in the brain. Im not a vet and have no idea but I still wish I had have taken him in earlier and insisted on getting his cone looked at just in case there was any possibility it could have caused the bleed. Now I have no idea on if that could have been possible but we always used to joke around saying Rusty wasnt all there up top as his cone was squashing his brain. He was abit strange at times was Rusty, so it was a big joke some of Rustys strange ways were caused by his cone head .

I dont want to scare you as it could have been anything that caused Rusty to pass but I wish that I had of had it looked at again just to be sure. If you feel that its not the norm run it by the vet. Our vet is really good but I still wish I had of gone back and had him look at it again. Snoopy has a little one but nothing like Rustys.Snoopys is like Princess but Rustys before he died was huge .  I dont remember Rustys being that obvious as a young dog it was once he was 2ish that it really started to stick out. We even used to put birthday hats on it and say it was his cone hat. Maybe keep an eye on it and just get it checked if you worry. I found some pics of him for you that show his cone.

 

 

Lady Kate's picture
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Antoinette brings up a good point.. when in doubt, always check with your vet. even a second opinion as we know our dogs and sometimes get that gut feel that shouldn't be ignored..

A.  So sorry about your loss.. Rusty looks like he was indeed, a wonderful guy

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Get to the vet soon very soon. Yes a bump is natural and normal. But be safe and have it checked.

Dobes are prone to bone cancer. I just lost Caine about two weeks ago to cancer. Believe me you do not want to go through what I did. Caine lasted 17 months after learning he had cancer. I never thought in my wildest dreams that this could happen. So if you or your vet think that it is a little large have it checked. Anytime something seems abnormal ot unusal have it checked, second opinions never hurt. Here are some photos of Caines last Day.

 

http://www.dobermancancer.com/lastday.html

Chipindob's picture
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Welkies Andrew, what's your babies name?

rgreen4's picture
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PhilNCaine - my condolonces on your loss. Cancer seems to be one of the leading causes of canine death as it is in humans. I have lost several Dobies over the years and in fact am going through the process again with Red as described in another thread in this section.

Red has a prominent ridge and is also was very aggressive chewer as a young dog. He would totally destroy a large black kong in a matter of months. He will turn 8 on the 24th of March

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Gosh PhilNCaine how sad, I went on your site and had to get off really quick as we have visitors coming and the tears kept coming. Awful , I know it was the same when Rusty went it was just a massive hole , however it was very quick which was a shock but I think it may be easier than having to go through what you did. I wonder if I sort of knew with Rusty as I used to talk to him alot and quite often thought how horrible it would be if he died and I would get really teary- yet nothing was every wrong with him- with Snoops I never get like that however Im now super paranoid, any time he looks strange or does something not right I think hes going and off we rush to the vet, thats got to stop as its putting a huge hole in the purse its quite ridiculous really . How did you find out that he had Cancer , was it in the side of his face.

My heart goes out to you very very sad . At least you know you gave him a awesome life and he would thank you for that.

Thanks Lady Kate. Rusty was so so cool, my big baby, He was quite strange though, we have big bifolds doors and to keep him out at times we would put string across - low to the ground- people would laugh as he never figured out he could step over that string as it would only be ankle height. Not quite right was Rusty but we really liked that about him. Poors Snoops though Im now very much the over protective mother.

Andrew87's picture
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Wow I am sorry to hear about your dog. That is just terrible :(

I have brought the dog to 2 different vets so far. The first one said he never knew dobermans had a bump on their head... So I think that guy may not know much about dobermans. My normal vet is currently taking family days off so I brought him in to her substitue and she said that it is a little bigger than normal. She suggests there may be a cyst on top. She said we should let him row up a bit and see what happens with it. She also said dont expect to win at west minister lol... Anyways though we could get an xray to really make sure its ok, I will wait till my normal vet is back in the beginging of april to let her look at it since she is pretty smart. Also in a week or 2 when his puppy infections are gone (giardia and ear infection) I am taking him to another vet to get cropped so maybe he will have some insight to it as well.

I just put pictures in my profile of him so you guys can check it out. I can take more if needed, would love to hear your input.

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Hi Andrew.  I agree that that bump does look exceptionally large!  I'd persist a bit with the vets.  I did notice that you said in a week or two that you're taking him to get cropped.  If the info on his profile is right, that puts him well over 16 weeks. From what I've read on the forum,  I'm thinking that is awfully late!  Maybe someone that has experience with ear cropping can post on this.  He sure is cute tho, I love the splayed out back legs.

Andrew87's picture
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His birthday is Dec 21. The profile thing is counting from Dec. 1 I Think. He is technically almost 3 months.

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Antoinette......

 

Thank you and Caine thanks you. And thank you to everyone else here. I still have moments of calling Caine over to pet him goodnight and calling him in the morning. It's just that we were together 24 hours a day. He even used to wake me up by pulling the blankets off the bed or a huge paw slam on my chest. It was his way of telling me "I want to go outside".

 

Caine was a tough dog, he never cried. And I mean never even as a pup. He cut him self a few times and not even a whimper. So one day I noticed a bump behind his eye, I didn't think much of it at first. I just thought he just smacked his head and had a bruise like if I got a black eye or something. After about a week or so we went to the vet and had him checked. That's when I got the god awful news, that and he had 6 months to live. I am so angry children and animals that get cancer. And now that it has happened to me, well that I had to go through special care for Caine it makes me even angrier. Animals and children for the most part do not deserve to have this. Sorry getting off the subject here. Caine outlasted the 6 months he was given, Caine went on for 17 months not the 6 he was given but 17. And up to his last week he still wanted to eat, paly, and everything he used to love to do. He couldn't open his mouth but would roll a ball around or hold his paw on it. It was his game for you to chase him for the ball. And even his last week, he stood tall, still got excited when he knew I was going out. he still wanted to go outside and go for a ride. He was no longer running. But he still felt he needed to make his "rounds" around the yard.

 

I just got a sympathy card from my vet today. And here is what is DR. wrote word for word. "Caine was one of the nicest and toughest dogs around".

 

So I suggest if you see anything unusal or out of the ordinary have it checked. Oh and chemo and radiation was not an option and neithe was amputation. Considering where the tumor was. Before he went another tumor started on the other side of his head, and his "knot" had gotten larger. After the tumor started it didn't grow very rapidly at first, not till after about a year. It affected his jaws' range of motion so he used his tongue to eat. then his eye socket grew smaller as the tumor got larger. Then I found my self wiping his face all the time, he could not open his mouth enough to clean the drool from his face and in his last week, it was constant blood almost pure blood, obviously for the tumor. And although I hard a hard time convincing myself that it was time for him to go to his Mom. He didn't want to go, I seen it in his eyes. He stood tall to the very end. Even when he couldn't do the stairs anymore and had to carry him up 3 flights of stairs.

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Ear cropping is usually done at approximately 7 to 8 weeks of age.

For the first 7 days after ear cropping, your pup will remain in his rack, with sutures holding the edges closed. Between 7 and 10 days after cropping, the sutures will be removed, the rack changed. For 7 to 10 days the pup will remain in his rack with the ears taped erect until all the edges are healed. Use peroxide to clean the edges of the ears and then apply a healing ointment.

The average time for taping is approximately 4-5 months. Most pups have their ears up by the age of 6 - 7 months.  It isn't unusual for some ears not to stand until the pup is a year old.  And some puppies have poor ear leather, which makes the ears unable to ever stand perfect or the tips curl inward.

Here is the important part about crops......

Crops should only be done under the guidance of an experienced Doberman vet/breeder/handler. Achieving ears that stand properly requires time and commitment on the part of the owner. Most agree that the ears should be taped for a week, then untapped long enough to allow the ears to breathe and dry out, then taped back up again. The longer the ears are left untapped, the longer it will take for them to stand on their own.


Find a vet experienced in Doberman crops and ask around, "word of mouth". It is better to spend the extra money for a crop done right versus a crop done wrong. Make sure the vet tests him for VWD. Caine had it so I never had him cropped. A vet that won't check for VWD doesn't know what he is doing.

In my opinion he is too old to be cropped. As a puppy grows the leather get thicker, therefore resulting in a bad crop, and more discomfort for the puppy. If you talk to some vets they may tell you the same thing. But ask around, ask breeders in your area where a good vet is for info on cropping.

Andrew87's picture
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The vet said he does them up to 14 weeks.

PhilNCaine's picture
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I would check with some other vets. Is this the vet that didn't know about the dobe "knot"?

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Andrew~ My raven had the same super large bump- I talked to my vet and she poked and prodded at it- IT moved and was not her smart bump- See my thread Well it's not a smart bump. the vet said when we spayed her she would remove it- That it was probably from a head injury- probably from mama or litter mate playing too rough- She thought it could be a bone chip that calcified as her skull grew... Well after about 3 weeks it started getting smaller and now is completely gone- no surgery for little miss on her pretty little head!

I would definately find another vet get a second opinion just to be on the safe side... Maybe suggest what my vet diagnosed ravens as...

Good luck - He is a supercutie bump and all!

Mandy

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PhilNCaine,

Just finished reading Caine's Bio. Of course I'm weeping while I try to type and thank you for joining this forum and bringing such valuable experience and willingness to guide some of us through some obviously scary and perhaps inevitable things.

You are very kind to lend support especially now when you must be grieving.

Kate and Sofia

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Just looked at the site- God Bless You Phil- RIP Caine- What you must still be going thru- thank you for joining and sharing with us...

Mandy

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No the vet who is going to do the cropping is not the one who had no idea what the bump was. I wont ever go back to that guy.

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lady Kate and Cisco..

 

Thanks, I wouldn't want anyone to go through what I did especially during the last week. Standing outside with him making sure that he didn't hurt himself, last few weeks he had a hard time with the stairs. So I either carried him up or stood behind him in case he fell. He always kept turning around making sure I was going with him. Then there was the last few days wiping blood from his mouth seemed almost constantly. His Birthday was that Monday, I took him to the vet on his Birthday Feb. 28th the vet told me I should do it in a few days, I said not today it's his birthday and I was going make it a good day for him as much as I could. So I brought him down a few days later on the 3rd of March. His birthday was on the 28th of Feb.

 

Sometimes I feel guilty and other times I feel to blame. I feel that ther is an answer for this out there somewhere we have to find it. And all this went on trying to take care of my elderly mother.

 

I have started looking for a puppy, but I haven't decided if the time is right yet. But I am still looking. And during Caine's last days I decided to write that site and donate some of my time raising money to give to research centers to fight the disease.

While looking for a pup I see alot of people wanting to give their Dobes away. Mostly because they can't handle or train them. I get angry about that sometimes. Dobes need a lot of attention to stimulate their minds and a way to relieve themselves of built up energy. It is really a shame to get a dog any dog, bring them home and say oh they don't get along with my family or I judt put them outside because they destroy my house. They went and got a dog without any knowledge about the breed. Oh I want a Dobe they will protect me an my house. They will but still need to be trained, they need the love and attention. So I have also decided to see if I can start a shelter for Dobes. A very misunderastood breed. I have had Dobes for quite a few years, I'm no pro and still learning. So as soon as I get finished relocating hopefully next winter. I plan on starting a rescue. I feel if someone else had Caine they would have put him down long ago or dropped him off at a pound or would have given him away. So I want to start a rescue and help these animals find good homes and have a good life. I don't know how to get it started and finding good foster homes will be a challenge. Hopefully there can be some good volunters around.

 

Sorry bout getting off topic, I tend to do that quite a bit.

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Phil - where are you relocating?  I think a dobe rescue is probably one of the hardest, but most noble calling ever.  If ever we can help in any way, please let us know.  (We're in GA)

Marti, Don, Brinks & MiLady

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Dabbles.....I'm going to the Fort Myers/Cape Coral area. It basically my love for dogs, and the more intense love for the breed and the lack of education for the public. It is sad when someone educated about the breed want one because of the bad publicity that arose in the 70's & 80's just to find out they cannot handle the dog, and the dog ends up in a pound or even worse. Being given someone who will mistreat the dog or just leave the dog tied in a corner of their year.

 

Phil

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When Rusty Passed PhilNCaine I was shattered , I loved that big dog so much, I used to talk to him before going to bed he was my big baby. Sounds terrible but the day after it happened  I woke up - very very upset- and said to Steve " I have to get another one" Everyone said No way its to early- I even googled how long you should wait as I felt guilty. However I opened the paper and there were puppies , rang the lady-she had one that she  drove 2 hours- all of us crying along the way- she had one picked out that she really wanted to go to a good home as it was her favorite- all I could think was but the Dad is not big like Rusty- of course in a perverse way I was trying to replace him. Luckily the puppies were not ready for two weeks so back home we came after putting a deposit on Snoopy. It wasnt like I saw him and fell in love with him there were 9 pups and I was just going off what she said and the fact I had to get another one- obsessing by now. Anyway two weeks later Snoopy came home. Now in no way whatsoever did he replace Rusty but he filled a massive hole and being a puppy he filled it pretty quickly. I would still have loads and loads of moments where I would cry and think of Rusty but having Snoopy around kept me so busy I would have to drag myself out of the sadness to deal with him. I did the same PhilNCaine I would go to work and imagaine Rusty around me all the time , picture him everywhere I went. I know people who took years to get a new dog once one passed and I think its a very individual thing and you will get one when you are ready but I can say from my experience getting Snoops filled that huge hole and certainly helped me with Rustys passing. I do compare him to Rusty alot still but in a good way and Rusty still and will always have that special place with us . SNoops is amazing ( not in the well behaved way hes a typical 10month old brat)  and I dont know if  its possible but hes just as spoilt if not more than Rusty. I just wrote this so if you are struggling with the guilt side of getting another you will know with us it worked out well and although we still miss our Conehead Snoops has filled that hole left by Rusty for us .

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Antoinette...

My guilt isn't so much replacing him. I was looking for a pup before Caine went, I was looking for a companion for him a little brother for him.

The guilt that I have is letting him endure the pain for so long. Watching him bleed and watching that tumor grow each day, watching his eye get squeezed. The other guilt that I have is that he protected me from a dog attack, and a thief who attempted breaking into my house and my truck. Caine always watched out for me and protected me. And then we(Caine and I) find out about this cancer, but I didn't protect him from that or from the pain. I couldn't stop it or should I say I didn't know how. If this happened today I still wouldn't. Amputation was not an option, neither was chemo or radiation. I have seen what that has done to a friends, a cousin, and my Mother. They all had cancer. I just feel that I did not or could not protect him. I relied on him to be my protecter and friend, he lived up to that and much much more. Even when he was sick except for the last few days, he continued protecting me and never complained, he stood tall till the very end. There has to be something somewhere and with a reasonable cost to protect our children and animals from this. I also feel that when we know about this cure, we will need to be billionaires to afford any treatment.

I feel guilty just because I couldn't protect him and that he suffered. If he dies quickly or from old age like my past dogs, the guilt wouldn't be so bad. Mainly because he had many years left. Many people that seen him and his energy thought he was only a couple of years old.

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Andrew87 - my vet typically does them at around 12 weeks. He has done them later. Princess was done at 12 weeks and she was the first one of mine that he used a cup to brace the ears immediately after surgery. It gave the support at that critical time, and I would recommend that if your vet does not use that method, you put one on. Cropping after 13 weeks is late, but it can be handled, but do not let the ears flop.

The key is that during this time the cartilage in the ears is hardening, and if they are allowed to flop, there is a risk of a crease as Red has in his left ear which will not stand. Just make sure the ears are supported during this period and they will be fine.

One reason breeders like to do the cropping at 7 to 8 weeks, is that the cropping is done by their vet before the pup goes to his new home. Finding a qualified vet with experience is the key.

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Phil - Cancer is something that too many know little about. Unfortunately I learned more than I ever wanted to know about it in the spring of 2005 when I was diagnosed with Prostate cancer and my older sister was battling a Sarcoma on her right hip. In January, 2006 she lost that battle.

One thing I found out that there are over 150 diseases of the cell dividing process that come under the heading of Cancer. Each much be treated differently and some are more aggressive than others. No one really knows how it starts, but depending on the specific variety, the outcome can be good or bad.

There is nothing you could have done to prevent Cain from coming down with his illness. When we have a dog that we are losing, it is difficult to make that fateful decision. We strive for just one more day. In 1995, Hans was suffering from kidney failure and had gotten so weak he could not get up the rear three steps. My vet put him on an IV and he perked up. The vet commented that the next 48 hours would be critical for once the effect of the IV wore off, if kidney function had not returned, there would be no saving him. At this point Hans was almost 11 1/2 and a long, long friend. We set noon two days later for me to call the vet and we would make our decision. I was watching the clock and dreading it's passage when 30 minutes early my vet called me with the news that Hans has just passed. The decision was taken out of my hands and I was grateful. I have, however, had to make that decsion on six other Dobies over the years, and it does not get easier.

Never second guess yourself. You make the decision based on love for the dog, from your post, you put yourself through a lot for him. He understood that also. They are very perceptive. When you are ready, please seriously consider a rescue as well. I have pretty well decided that my next Dobie will be a rescue as well. There are too many out there looking for a loving home. No dog will ever replace Cain, just as no dog has ever replaced Windy or Hans or ...

Each makes their own way, and when we lose them, each leaves a little hole, and lots of wonderful memories. Cherish the memories, remember the good times, and open your heart to the next Dobie when the time is right.

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Rick, I could not have put it better myself.. Thank you for your generous spirit and guidance you've provided for so long here on the forum

You always have a way of seeing through the problem and helping with the solution

PhilNCaine~ your stories touch our hearts and you will find, or perhaps you already have discovered the wonderful Karma that Dobermans provide.

If you can touch a single person by relating how you dealt with the loss of Caine and have gone on to give back ( just a little) of the devotion and love he provided.. then his job has been completed.

There's a saying in Hospice..

"All you can do, is all you can do"

Words to live by and certainly help someone die with.