Am I over reacting with the health of my new 6 week puppy?

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estioko04's picture
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Joined: 2014-10-22

Hello again everyone one. I know I’ve been posting like crazy on different things, but I can use some support and someone to talk to.

So Like I have stated in my other post I now know what a byb is in Cali (learning the hard way) and even though some people are mad I got her that way, I don’t feel too bad because the way I see it, my husband’s heart was in the right place and in a way we saved Kira. When we got her she was 4lbs at 6 weeks (not 8 weeks as we were told) no shots (as we were told she had but didn’t’), had worms, malnourished, and hip and rib bones were showing.

She now is eating better, got all her shots updated till the next set, dewormed, she’s now a little fatter and in a safe home warm home, not a box in a cold garage and she even gained 1lb in 4 days since we brought her home.

Well I took her to vet for an emergency problem. She’s not walking right, can’t stand on her hind legs for long and “bunny hops” when she moves around the living room. The vet said that” bunny hops” are somewhat normal, but not the way she is doing it and has hip problems so young. So now I have to do an x-ray that is gonna cost a lot.

My husband is very mad because he feels dooped. We tried to call and text and email the people we got Kira from but we can’t get a hold of them. I don’t want to give her back; I just want them to give me the money back to pay for her xrays and whatever else she needs. But I can’t cry over something I can’t get..so I’m just upset and feel stupid. Cali and NC are very differnt.

I and my husband have argued about Kira’s situation and we aren't talking to eachother right now. :/  His friends are telling him that Doberman’s and in general all puppies do the “bunny hops” until they get stronger. And at 6 weeks this is normal till they are 12 weeks. But The vet said it’s not normal and even though she is young, he can tell she has problems and that this xray, shots and procedure is necessary.  My husband doesn’t think so because he think this vet is sketchy. But the next nearest vet to us is 2 hours away.

Am I overthinking and being a worry wart and my husband is right?  Or am I right and handover the money?

Kira hasn’t the best start off since we got her this past Sunday the 2nd. I read some of the forums that they will grow out of the "bunny hops", but I am scared. This puppy isn’t what I thought she would be. She is having a lot of health issues too soon in life in my opinion. However, I’m NOT gonna get rid of her, put her down, or rehome her. I’m gonna stick this out. I just want her to be healthy, happy and be able to run around and play like other Dobermans.

Sgourle's picture
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I will try not to rehash anything that you have undoubtedly heard numerous times regarding puppy age and BYBs.

First, I got my Lab/heeler Otto at 6.5 weeks. I can't say that I ever remember him "hopping." He had to sit down to turn sharply, but never hopped, so I can't really speak to the normalcy of it.

Second, regarding current and future expenses, this is a very expensive breed. I got June from a BYB (although, to his credit, he did sign a health guarantee to be deemed "healthy" by a vet of my choice, and has since stayed in touch). I got June because a friend mentioned him and I fell in love with that little face. He was underfed, had a rotted baby tooth, a botched and unhealed tail docking, and mange. I could have returned him, but *I* couldn't return him, and of course I knew it would cost me. Just tonight I had a full neurological response panel, physical examination, and x-rays done to find out why June has been shaky and seemingly in pain. Fortunately, his hips are tight, his responses are fantastic, his range of motion makes the vet "jealous," and all of his x-rays show symmetric and healthy bone growth. The vet's diagnosis was generalized--not clinical--growing pains, or an isolated trauma from playing too hard at the beach or the park. I was extremely lucky though. They could just as easily have told me he has Wobbler's. Or Panosteitis. Or Hip Dysplasia. Or.... Point being, there are a LOT of diseases that affect this breed, and which are far more prevalent when we purchase from BYBs. If you are set on this dog you should come to terms with the fact that a few hundred dollars in x-rays may pale in comparison to future veterinary expenses. It's a crap shoot, especially with a puppy that young.

Third, being cautious and fully exploring your vet's concerns is not, in my opinion, overreacting, even if this simply means making a day trip to go see another veterinarian. Putting blinders on to valid concerns is a recipe for future disappointment and exponentially higher vet bills to compensate for lack of prevention/correction early on. If, for instance, June had Wobbler's, I would much rather know now and make proper adjustments to our lifestyle to limit pain and further damage (incidentally, I did start him on a daily regiment of Cosequin for future health). If you really have concerns about your vet my advice would be to set a date, put aside anticipated funds and then a little extra, and make a trip to another vet.

I really hope that it is overracting, and that aside from losing a little money you end up with the happy, healthy doberdog of your dreams =) You have my best wishes.

"bunny hops" are not normal - you need to find out what is going on.

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So very sorry you're going through this and of course battling the finances makes for even more worry. When you took on this baby, you took on all the responsibilities for her health and welfare and I applaud you for that. It's not going to be easy and there will be other issues. I would encourage you and your husband to look at this realistically and recognize that there's going to be a lot of money spent to keep this little one on the right road. I think you realize this, and hopefully hubby will come on board soon. You don't need any extra angst. Even at a young age, Dobermans are scary psychic and will pick up on any discord creating havoc and emotional upsets. She needs a calm and nurturing environment.. Once again, I am sorry that Kira is getting such a shaky start.. but you are the only one who can help her grow up to be a big strong and healthy girl.. Hugs and prayers..

estioko04's picture
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Joined: 2014-10-22

So the vet in town raised the price of the quote he gave me which is half my month’s rent now and I’m pretty mad. I made and appointment with another vet but not till the 14th. I’m really worried about her legs and I honestly can’t sleep. She walks fine, but bunny hops when it comes to running. Monday the 10th she will be 7 weeks old. I know puppies are expensive. I’m not saying I can’t afford her, but I wasn’t expecting such a unwell puppy to start off with and it’s frustrating because she hasn’t been with us for more than a week and already spent close to $1,000 dollars on her.

I know the only person can tell me if she is fine or not is a vet. But I am super anxious and no one can see me sooner. I try to her to get use to her hind legs by putting a treat above her head and she seems to get it okay but uses her front legs to grab my hand so she can balance.

Am I expecting too much from her since she is so young? Here are some pictures of her legs.

I just need some kind of peace until her appointment.

Sgourle's picture
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How darling her little butt is!

Maybe keep her off of hard/slippery surfaces until the appointment? I once had a beagle puppy with a weak tendon in his front leg. Our vet recommended surgery, ugh; however, the specialist told us that it should strengthen fine as he grew, but that we should avoid any slippery surfaces until it had strengthened and matured. I only mention this since she is on tile in the picture =) I know how difficult it can be to keep them off of it too, since my place is mostly tile. If she doesn't seem in pain then you are really doing the best that you can at this point.

Best of luck to you, keep us posted!

talisin's picture
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just from what I am seeing in the pics it looks like she might be putting most of her weight on her back right leg??? she's tilting that way anyway in the pics......that would be concerning and if Fitz says it's not normal you can trust that one and take it to the bank.....

Sorry you're having the marital squabble too, been there done that one....it's not fun....x-rays are usually $500 or under and usually in my area of NC $75 for each view but once under they will do multiples for less than $75 each usually 3-4 will run me around $500 so if you are being quoted a huge amount I would ask for a written quote....and explanation....if it's way over just for x-rays find another vet. There is anesthesia involved and if your vet has not done anything requiring bloodwork yet then there is a cost for pre-procedure bloodwork, anesthesia, the x-rays so it can add up. Also if there was bloodwork done the results are usually good for around a month so if your vet is requiring more bloodwork then ask what the purpose is and remind him/her that bloodwork was done recently.....and alot of vets can offer resources that can help with costs so ask the help at the desk about that.....

And if you didn't get a written health guarantee then you can expect to not have any recourse to get any help for vet care and since you are getting no response from the "breeder" then my mind would say they knew she was not well and sending her out at 6 weeks was a HUGE red flag

Keep us posted on this little one!!!

It is really hard to look at pictures and tell anything - the left knee looks funky to me, but it may just be the way she is standing. 

See what the vet says. She looks thin and I can see her hip bones.  I'm not a vet - so hope you can get her in soon. 

WNCDobes's picture
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I'm sorry you've had such a difficult time with your pup, and thank you for not giving up on her.  Such a cutie!  I don't blame either one of you for being angry - that "breeder" didn't do right by you or this pup.  I wouldn't be able to give her back, put her down, or rehome her, either.

As Fitzmar said, its really hard to look at pictures and tell anything, but to me, both knees look strange.  It may be that she's so thin.  She seems to have very little muscle in her thighs - I wonder if simple lack of muscle tone is part of her problem.

Hopefully the vet will have some answers for you soon.

estioko04's picture
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So here is an update on Kira. We paid for the vet visit and the xrays but he said everything looks fine no broken bones. I asked him about her muscles and legs and he said that’s going to have to be another xray because it’s different from bone and muscle. I’m not a vet, but I am a Kinesiology student and I know how xrays work. SOOO we wasted 600$ to get told nothing is wrong and if we wanna see if it’s her muscles then we need another appointment. I’m not that dumb. We are gonna take her to a vet that’s 2hrs away. December the 1st since we are now broke.

I do believe it’s weak muscles because I have seen other Doberman puppies through youtube videos and their hind legs look thicker than hers. However she was the runt of the litter so I know no matter what everything about her is going to be smaller. I’m still anxious and hoping she is okay, but upset we wasted money and time at the vet to get told me need a different set of xrays. I will continue to play with her and try and strengthen her hind legs. I know it doesn’t hurt her because if it did she wouldn’t be so happy to jump up and get her toy now. She has a bit more confidence in standing on her hind legs with support .

 However I took everyone advice and little by little she is gaining weight. She is now 7 weeks and 2 days and weighs 6.78 lbs. I know it’s not a lot and still under weight, but she just started eating better.

I got her esbilac 2nd step baby formula and been putting it in with her puppy food. She eats ALL of it!! Yes she has had the poops, but this is the first time she has actually eaten a full meal with nothing left over! I’m super excited she is actually eating and not just taking bites running away then still leaving a handful in the bowl. I also put ice cubes in her water to get her to drink more and it makes her happy.

I stand her on her hind legs little by little every day and put a treat in my hand so she has to get up and stand on them with support from my knee just incase cuz she can’t hold herself.

As she eats and play most of her weight is actually on her front paws. I’m doing a gentle pace around my floor with her to get her use to walking rather than bunny hopping. And I’m keeping her off tile and putting her n carpet. I even have a towel like a bridge from living room to kitchen rug where her food is at so she has traction and doesn’t slip.

I’ll still continue to update you all my next vet visit what they say about her hind legs and I still will post pictures of her when I can. But seriously thank you all for posting to the forums and giving me advice. She has put on 2.78 lbs since we got her, shes more playful and she getting better surely but slowly. Thank you all for your help.

Oz Dobe's picture
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Hi estioko04. I'm sorry to hear about your well founded concerns about your new pup. I'm glad you did get a bone xray, because at least that has eliminated one set of possible problems and you can begin to narrow down what the issue is.

I'm not a vet and I have no experience with this type of issue, but if there has been a feeding issue, my feeling would be that that would explain a lack of muscle tone and the issues that could stem from that.

Being a runt, Kira may have missed out on many feeds while still with mum. Its not uncommon for a runt not to have access a teet during feeding, so this could have contributed to the situation she is in now.

Its fantastic that she has started eating more regularly now. Good job with that. Some rehab like your doing has got to help too. She may have been this way for a while, so it may take some time to correct.

I had issues with Storm when I brought her home at 10wo. She had swollen lymph nodes for weeks, delaying her vaccinations because the vet did not want to overwhelm her immune system. We never did find out what the issue was, so I understand how worrying this can be, and not knowing can drive you crazy.

I'm sure Kira is aware of how hard youre trying to help her, and this will only serve to strengthen the bond between you.

estioko04's picture
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Joined: 2014-10-22

OZ Dobe thank you. I Also tried the Kong thing with some of the kong stuff you put in it, she hates it. HAHA! I tried peanut butter just a little she hates that too. So picky. I do have a question for you though about putting her in her play pen. I can put her in in when I am at home doing dishes or laundry, but if I leave to the gym, store or to my doctor, when I come home…there is poop EVERYWHERE!!! I had to clean poop off the wall and give her a bath today. This is what her pen looks like. I’m trying to separate her  little by little from me but she whines. I do ignore it and when she is quiet for 30 seconds I say good girl shhhh quiet shhhh and give her a treat like you said. Then I count to 60 seconds and do the same thing. Now I can do 5 mins. BUT that’s when I’m home. If I leave seriously….poo everywhere, it’s like she holds it in just for that occasion as if to say “B**ch you leaveing me? Fine I’m gonna crap everywhere!” I had to give her a bath tonight because she was covered in poop. I was only gone for 30 mins. SMH. 

But yes I am glad there is nothing broken. And yes she was really bad off when we first got her. She is fatting up and feeling more confident with getting her toy and getting on her hind leg. I watch youtube videos on Dobermans to make sure she is comfortable and I don’t push her.  When she runs really fast she still bunny hops and it worries me. I watch her feet. I will post a video Friday to show everyone how she runs. Some of the videos with the puppies on youtube look the same as when Kira runs, but then other puppies don’t.

So thank you for your advice. Also thank you everyone who has posted to me.

This is kira's play pen. There is a pillow under that towel. I took this while she was sleeping on the couch with her toys. I had to clean it out becuase she pooped everywhere.

WNCDobes's picture
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Glad to hear that Kira's doing better!  I don't think you wasted your $ on x-rays - at least now you know its not a skeletal issue.

Sounds like you're doing a good job with the seperation, too, but she's not making a mess on purpose when you leave.  What many people see as vindictiveness is really anxiety.  Its not that she's mad at you, she's just scared.  She's really just a little baby still; forgive her (yeah, I know its easy for me to say, I don't have to clean up the poo!).

I understand the budget issues, too.  Our Harrigan was diagnosed with a liver disease and the vet wanted to do a $700 biopsy.  We discussed it and found that the treatment and prognosis was basically the same no matter what the biopsy showed, so we didn't do it, just started treatment.  He responded, and we saved $700.  I didn't care what was making him sick, I just wanted him better.  There were other factors in the decision as well, but why spend money if the treatment is the same either way?  

If you work on building her hind end strength and she is comfortable and improves, why spend $ on diagnostic tests (as long as she isn't in pain)?  

I think just good food and love and activity will help her - I don't know if I'd purposly exercise those legs quite yet.  

Thanks for the update and keep us posted on her progress.

talisin's picture
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Glad she is going to another vet in December and I agree the money wasn't wasted I would much rather spend money to find everything was ok than to find an issue that would cost even more money.....

Hope she improves, slow and steady wins the race, if it's warm where you are you could do some water therapy, by taking a large kiddie pool and filling it with water so that it covers half her legs or a bit higher and leash her and make laps around the pool with you on the outside her in the water of course, the water will help strengthen the muscles without hurting the joints - just an idea.....

Of course you could ask the vet if that's ok, but a bit of water therapy might help her feel good too.....

as for her play area, I think I would enlarge it some if that's where she is when she poops, looks like she doesn't have enough room to get away from the pooped in area, which will stress her and of course require baths when you return, give her enough space to have room to lay down, play a little and still have an area to poop in just in case.....

Oz Dobe's picture
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Joined: 2014-03-25

A tool that might also help is Ian Dunbars Auto trainer. It is essentially a treat dispenser, designed to train the dog to be calm while you are gone.

The device emits a series timed beeps that get closer, as the time for the treat to be auto dispensed arrives. If the dog barks, the timer resets and the dog has to wait longer for the treat. Apparently the dog not only stops barking, but also is calmer while on their own.

Cheers.

talisin's picture
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now that's a great idea I will save that info for later reference that's a great tool - have you used it???

I wonder if that would help dogs with high anxiety like separation anxiety that is maxxed out? thanks I will share with a friend whose american bulldog/pitty mix is out of control when she is away

Oz Dobe's picture
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Hi talisin. No I havent tried it out myself, as I havent had a need for it yet.

I learnt about it through an online course with udemy.com in which Ian Dunbar delivers a 3 day seminar about dog training. In the course he explains how the device works and the principle behind it. Its genius. I highly recomend the course btw, I'm not doing it for any accreditation. Just for personal interest. It has really helped me with my training.

Apparently, the device has been tested in shelters and various other places. The dogs often become so relaxed they wind up snuggling up to the machine lol.

I would like to buy one just to try it out, but there are no distributors in Oz. I might have to approach some local pet stores..

If you do try it out, can you report back on how well it works?

Cheers.

Sgourle's picture
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I just bookmarked that amazing machine as a post-holiday purchase. What a brilliant idea.

I am very glad to hear that Kira is doing better. Water therapy is a great idea, and depending on where you live (climate) there may be places around that offer it at a reasonable rate, although probably not until she is older and has all of her shots. I started taking Juneau to a place that is $20 for up to an hour, and $10 if they tire or are anxious within 20 minutes (first swim is usually shorter). It is in a heated pool and they have the carts that load and lower the dogs into the pool so they aren't just thrown in, which allows them to get accostomed to the water a little at a time. As talisin mentioned water/swim therapy is a really great way to strengthen muscles in proper allignment without high impact. Definitely something to think about if she still needs some muscle toning as she grows.

Enlarging her pen will probably help the poo issue since if she does have an accident she would still have plenty of room to play/sleep without having to step in the mess. At her age she really can't hold it very long, and the anxiety associated with being alone (not natural for a puppy that age to begin with) isn't helping, so there will unfortunately be accidents =/ But if you are able to minimize the anxiety she feels over the accident and offer her space to remove herself from it you will have less mess to clean up =)

estioko04's picture
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Update on Kira!

Sooooo I have great news everyone! SHE IS OKAY! YAY!!!!! And she also is now 7.8lbs!!! woot woot! When I first got her 3 weeks ago she was only 4lbs.

 I took her to another vet to get a 2nd opinion and he told me that the vet I took her to ripped me off and he is sorry for that.

So he did the xrays for free for me and everything is fine; her bones and muscles are great. She is just a runt of the litter so she is running weird because she is trying to catch up and learning how to play. And since she was taken away from the litter so young and deprived food, she is just trying to catch up on everything. If I keep doing what I am doing with her she will grow up strong and healthy.

I just need to strengthen her hind legs some, keep socializing her with people and feeding her.

So I cried a little from joy knowing she is okay now and just needs extra work in strength training.

Thank you everyone for advice and posting and talking with me. I told the vet about this forum and said he is very happy I have this outlet and that all pet owners should be this responsible, so that made me feel good.

So anyone have any recommendations for building strength? I know she is only 8 weeks old, but I tried the pool idea and she gets sooo scared and hate it. I liked the idead a lot so I even tried making her feel safer by doing swimming in the bathtub, nope! Haha.

And she is still having anxieties being put in her play pen. I made it bigger like you said Talisin, but she now has more stuff to shred. She ripped the pee pads from the ground (I tapped them to mae them stable so she wouldn’t get pee and poo on the floor) she pooped all over her blanket and she also peed everywhere. I had to give her another bath. She also cries sooo much our neighbors came over and we had to talk to them. She is getting louder.

And Oz dobe. I looked into that trainer treat thing and We might get it on next pay day.

My husband was thinking about an electric collar. IDK about that but he said he did research at work and a guy who owns a pitbull on base said it works great. I have never used one, but I have always have labs and pits and never had a problem. They always did well. What do you guys think?

I put her in it while I do dishes and she use to be calm but now she trys to break out of it to get to me just to sleep by my feet. She already broke one of the gates.

Well besides the behavior problems, her heath is great and she is just a runt and will catch up. So I am happy. Anyone else have a runt from a litter?

Oz Dobe's picture
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Wow! Great work. How reassuring for you to know that your instincts are on the money. Its great that you found a good vet, and that he respects where your coming from.

I think you just need to be careful you dont over exercise at this point. Maybe some "Sit, stay, come" training where you can control the distance she travels to you. Maybe some gentle flirt pole training..a little tug..

Why the shock collar? For barking? If its for anxiety a shock collar will make it worse. You wouldnt put a shock collar on a baby for crying. I wouldnt put a shock collar on any dog, let alone a puppy,UNLESS I'd tried EVERY other concievable method first, and the need was to save the dogs life. Shock collars require alot of knowledge about dog training, and not meaning to offend, but neither you or your husband sound like you have that experience. Punishment that is incorrectly used is abuse.

The last Dobe I had was a runt, dumped in the bush. I rescued her at 8wo and she's the best dog I've ever had and she was loved by one and all. I did use some harsh methods back then (in the days before the interwebs), and I regret it now, even to this day. I keep playing back all the OTHER ways I could have trained her differently. Its not that I was any harsher than other ppl I knew, but it still haunts me to know now, what I didnt know then. I'd hate for you to feel the same regret that I feel, if you can avoid it. Especially after all the great work you've put in.

You can work on getting her to love food by inserting it right before she gets something she loves. Ie if she loves the flirt pole, tell her to sit, show her the flirt pole. Offer her a treat. When ever she takes the treat, praise her and give her some love with the flirt pole. Eventually she learns that the treat equals good times. Gradually she will take the treat to get to the good stuff. After a short time she will grow to love the food because it has become a token of exchange for play. It cant hurt to try.

Hand feeding is also recomended for dogs who arent keen on food also. Meat from the hand is a good place to start.

Storm sees Sits like this. When you insert something they are not keen on BEFORE they do something they like, the antecedent becomes more enticing. Because I've insisted on a sit for all the good stuff in life, food, ball play, tug etc, she just likes sitting, even when shes not prompted.

If you make sure her tummy is empty before you leave for the gym, and feed her a frozen kong right as you leave, it may help with the anxious defecating while your gone. I would try tying the kong to something so that she couldnt drag it through the poo while your gone as well. Make sure you take her out for some potty time, before you leave also. You can try desensitizing her to your cues upon leaving the house also. Go through the ritual you use when you leave. If you turn off the aircon, or tv, pack the gym bag etc, break the ritual up and say, pick up the keys, go outside for 30secs and come back in again, with no attention paid to the pup. Pack your gym bag and leave the house for a minute and come back inside. Gradually extend the time you are gone from the house until she can make it for an hour without freaking out.

It sounds like you have good instincts with Kira. Go with what your gut tells you and youll do fine. I look forward to hearing more about her adventures in the near future.

 

 

 

 

WNCDobes's picture
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Do not use an electric collar on your puppy - or any Doberman for that matter.  In my opinion, they shouldn't be used at all.  They are a poor trainer's excuse and can ruin a dog in an incredibly short time.

Is the playpen problem only when you're home  and trying to do stuff without her or just when you leave her alone?  Does she have toys and chewies to occupy her time?  She's just a baby and is probably scared to be away from her pack - don't be too hard on her.

When you're home, you might want to try this:  put her in the pen for just a minute; before she starts to fuss, give her a treat, praise, and take her out.  Do it again, over and over, trying to lengthen the time you leave her.  Don't reward her fussing - take her out before she starts to make noise.

We had a rescue who wasn't crate trained and couldn't be left loose in the house.  We tried every trick in the book to get him in that crate when he needed to go in, finally just literally wrestling him in.  BUT, after time, he got into a schedule and knew he was going to be let out and got much easier to crate.  They LOVE schedules.

Oh, and they also melt in water.  She'll get stronger just by being an active puppy - I wouldn't push her physically too much.

So glad to hear there's nothing permanently wrong with her!

 

talisin's picture
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Definitely no shock collar that will escalate the situation and cause her to not trust you which she absolutely needs to do, she obviously has issues of loneliness and insecurity and putting something on her that will hurt her or scare her or both will make her so unhappy and hard to work with cause that comes from an unknown place to her and she has nothing to correlate it to.....

a good example is my neighbors dog they moved in and had a shepherd/husky mix female very fragile in body scale very quiet never heard a peep out of her.....till.....they put in one of those damn electric fences so they could just toss her out anytime and be done with her.....I heard her one day when they finished installing the fence yelp twice with a horrible yelp I was terrified for her then I realized they had her with the fence collar on......well guess what a once stable quiet dog is now the most emotionally scarred animal......she barks all the time, she is terrified to be in her own yard, her bark is one of panic and fear not territorial protection, but total terror.....all because of that dang shock collar from the fence

A tiny puppy is not a subject for a collar like that anyway even if you are a trained professional this is a baby - a BABY - she is trying to understand her world it is your job to teach her about her world - think baby - how would you get a human baby to stop crying, how would you teach a human about their world, would you smack them or would you introduce them to items they would encounter daily in order to teach them that they are not to be feared??? if your husband thinks the collar is needed then you need to talk with your husband about why he feels the collar is a substitute for training.....seriously he needs to fess up to whether he is on board with the responsibility of raising a needy child which is what she will be till you have trained her to be stable and well rounded emotionally, her success as an adult relies on your success as parents to her as a baby.....repeat that sentence to yourself and your husband her habits are direct reflection of how well you understand and train her properly  and positive training is the only thing that works for the working dogs and herding dogs that I have ever had.....negative reinforcement is negative and that aggitates and pisses them off. So do you want a great dog or a fearful handful of trouble. Look into how to raise her and when she has had all her shots get her into obedience and train her they are smart dogs and NEED and WANT to be trained.

As for the legs I strengthened my cats and one dogs legs by just having them walk up and down steps very low steps to start but steps are always good, if you can't find steps make your own out of books (heavy books you don't want her to hurt herself) or blocks of wood or exercise stepper blocks put her on a leash and slowly walk her up and down, you could try ramps they are easy enough you can take a blank of wood and prop it up and keep increasing the incline every few days it will help to build those muscles to push off and up or down and back but keep her on a leash so you can control the speed she walks it the slower the better......

Be a part of her world, let her see you as her world and that it's a kind and loving world not one of shocking pain and scary surprises......

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The above posts are spot on about my opinoin on shock collars, I would never use them on any dog but especially not such a little baby. She is in a completely new envorinment and needs time to adjust to the routine people.

When my guy was a pup we did crate games from the get-go. He was never one for sleeping in his crate and would much rather use the couch, but if at any time I say "go crate" he runs as fast as he can and waits. He knows he gets a big reward and play as soon as I say "ok". Make training fun! You're pup is still so young and it will take time but she can't deferentiate the difference between "play" and "work", those two words should be synonymous for her.

I wouldnt be too concerned with training at this point but would do some fun games with her to help her aclimate to her environment. As the above said, treat her for being quiet in her pen, and slowly lengthen the time.

Be patient! You're only just beginning and it will all come in time. SO happy to hear everything is going well and that she is ok! Make sure to keep us posted.

 

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Hey Guys. Sorry it’s been a while. I’ve been really sick and finals are coming up.

Oz Dobe, Talisin, WNCDobes My husband and me got into an argument about the shock collar. So I made my husband a deal. We will use a shock collar on Kira IF he can wear it and it doesn’t affect him. I told him to do 3 big barks and if he felt no shock and it don’t hurt then we can put it on Kira……Kira isn’t wearing a shock collar. HAHAHA. Sometimes men can be stubborn (no offense men.) We just deal with the barking and greatly apologize to our neighbors. We just let her bark it out and eventually she stops.

She has stopped pooping and keeping in her play pen. We took her pee pads out because she would chew on them as she freaked out. She is getting better. Also she is no longer pooping or peeing in the house and going on her pee pads.

How do you all feel about taking her outside on her 3 set of shots? She HAS a lot of energy and shredding up the house. I want to take her outside to play and run around but we live in a complex. The vet said she shouldn’t go outside till her 4th set of shots but I have read that it’s perfectly fine to take them out on their 3rd set of shots. How do you guys feel about it?

Also Oz Dobe, I got her eating. I mix wet dog food with her dry food and heat it for 30seconds and she eats 90% of it. I also got her a gel that adds weight to puppies that don’t eat. I give her 1 tbsp of it like it says and she eats it up and is getting bigger. I weight her the 9th of December when we get her 3rd set of shots. But I am happy she is eating.

Thank you all for everything. I will post pictures this Friday of her. She is getting bigger. OH and everyone she is using her hind legs A LOT better! She is jumping and playing tug of war great!

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Great work :)

LOL re the shock collar test. I usually do suggest this to ppl I meet who consider a shock collar, but being online, I thought I would err on the side of caution and not suggest it. It sounds like your training is progressing with all members of the family ;)

Great news that toilet training is working. That must be a huge relief for you (no pun intended). Obviously the anxiety is gradually being reduced. Thats the goal.

I strongly suggest you do not take Kira out into the world until she's had ALL her shots. You've come too far to start taking risks with Kiras health. I would suggest lots of car rides.

I suspect what stopped Kira eating previously was a form of learned helplessness. She gave up on food because being a runt she learned early on that fighting for a teat on mum was futile. So she just gave up on it. Many animals die of starvation due to this, so its no surprise that she stopped trying for food.

Now that shes eating pretty well I would continue doing what your doing, but gradually try putting her dinner in a kong. If she isnt interested in the Kong, go right back to feeding her in her bowl. But every now and again see if she'll eat from a Kong. Smearing her Nutrigel (thats the brand we use in Oz) in a kong or gradually getting her to follow it around on a spoon might be a better bet. She needs to overcome that learned helplessness and to relearn that a little work is OK for food. Gradually she will become more comfortable working for food and that will make your life a lot easier.

Keep going, your making real progress. We all appreciate the updates, and we look forward to some pics soon.

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hahahahaah yep that collar test is eye opening, I got a collar that was just supposed to vibrate note the word vibrate, for our chihuahua he had a habit of going into the laundry room when we weren't paying attention and getting into the litter box, that room cannot be seen from the living room, and we have cats that are elderly so there was no way to barracade the chihuahua out and allow the cats in, most of the cats were same size or larger than the chi so figuring this one out was trying, so I got this collar that stated NOT a shock collar.....it had zones that when you placed a zone unit at the door if he crossed it it would vibrate and he was supposed to not cross the line.....sounded perfect....got the darn thing and we both tested it on our arms - not our necks and it was a shock collar had a bit of a vibration but for the most part all shock collar.....so that got sent back.....

and the neighbors shep/husky mix she is still panicked by anything that moves and it's been almost a year since they popped her with the fence shock collar to teach her boundaries.....not worth the trauma mentally to the dog to use these things.....

funny that now your husband knows what it would feel like and why we all said no.....live and learn the hard way

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Yep the other thing I've heard dogs do with underground fencing is learning that if they can take 30secs of pain to get through the 'barrier' (literally the pain barrier) they are home free. I know some ppl trying to keep a dog in with one of these, and they are watching it condition itself to the shock collar before their very eyes.

So what happens when a dog manages to get past an underground fence and you try to recall him? The dog gets punished (shocked) on the recall. Absolute waste of time. The dog learns it can hack the pain to get out, and will never 'come home' because he is shocked trying to return.

 

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Glad to hear Kira is doing well and that you decided against the shock collar.

Just chiming in about building up back legs, some of my girls littermates are show dogs and the advice from a v. experienced shower, breeder and judge here in Europe advises 10 min a day of brisk road/pavement walking to build back leg muscles for the ring. Bear in mind you shouldn't exercise more than 5 min per month twice a day :) edit- obviously to work on after her shots :)

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Oz Dob:  I think I spoke to soon. I came home last night from the store and there was pee and poop EVERYWHERE in her pen. And the yesterday and today she poops and pees on the kitchen floor and carpet instead of the pee pads. I don’t know what happened. Within 24 hrs she turned into a little turdbucket!

Also I will wait till she has all her shots then. I did work very hard to dd weight, get her to eat and worried a lot about her health. You are right, the last thing I need is for her to get really sick and something happen. I’d feel so bad.

And I tried to put the nutragel in her kong and she just looked at it and left it. She really hates her kong. She will chew on shoes, laptop cable, feet, socks, and everything else but her puppy bone we got her and her kong. I got the only dog in the world who hates kongs. I remember my lab henry loved his kong and if he could have literally eaten it he would have. Hahah.

Talisin: Yeah I was against it in the first place but asked you all because my husband started ot make me doubt myself. I have never used one on any of my dogs that I have had. Even when we got Titan the 2 year old Doberman from the shelter and he had a barking problem, I called the trainer at the shelter and asked her and she told me not to use choke chains, shock collars or any pinch collars because it hurts them dog physically and emotionally. So I am glad my husband tried it. I never seen an electric fence in real life but that sounds soooooo horrible. The way I look at all my animals is if I don’t want it done to me, then I won’t do it to them.

Konkie: I walk her around the house on her leash to try and get her use to it. I watch a lot of Zac George videos on youtube, but that doesn’t happen in real life or in 4 minutes. Hahaha.  Thank you and I willdo that after I get all her shots:

And also how do you guys feel about ear cropping? I want her ears cropped. I know it’s 500$ but she is 10 weeks old and her ears are already standing on their own to a point.

Would it be a good idea to post her ear prior to surgery? I talked to one lady with a Doberman at Petco the same lady I talked to a while ago. She there is no harm in pre-posting them until she gets them cropped. But you all have been a lot wiser and helpful. So can I do that? Will it do anything or should I wait till she actually gets them cropped?

Thank you everyone for everything like always

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I'm so glad to hear that Kira's doing better.  The housebreaking can sometimes be a "two step forward, one step back" process - just continue to be consistent and it'll come.

Great way to circumvent the shock collar!  I agree that electric fences are useless too.  I have a friend that had a Rottie who learned how to get near enough to the fence to activate the collar, but not hurt himself.  He'd stay there until the battery wore down, then waltz right through the fence.  

Having Dobermans for 20+ years, I've found that some like Kongs, some don't.  Maybe she's a squeeky toy Dobe?  I know that you can spend a fortune buying dog toys that wind up un-played with, but it really is a good idea to find something she'd rather chew on than shoes and socks and wires.  You can always donate the rejects to your local animal shelter.  

I personally have no objection to ear cropping.  I love the look of cropped ears, and the puppy I had cropped years ago didn't seem to feel any pain from it (but she had an incredibly high pain threshold).  It can be hard to learn how to post.  I was lucky that my breeder was within driving distance and reposted Eowyn's ears when they needed it.  She had beautiful ears.  I've never heard of pre-posting, but it seems logical that it might help.

It sounds like you're incredibly dedicated to Kira - she's so lucky to have found you.  Don't worry about little setbacks - she's still just a baby.  Consistency is the key!

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HI there.. I cannot add a thing to this thread.. all the bases have been covered. Just wishing you good luck and lots of patience with this baby.

She's come a long way in a short amount of time due to your consistent care. Kudos!!

The fact that your had to bring her home early, made your job extra difficult.. of course some things might be a bit delayed on her part.. She'll get it.. she's going to be a wonderful girl. Please post photos when you can. They change so much and so quickly.. YAY YOU!

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WNCDobes: Thank you for your kind words. I am a true animal lover and no matter what animal I have I want to make sure they live a happy life. I know what it’s like to want to be just loved and happy, so I treat my pets the same. That complement made me feel good because my husband tells me I worry too much and I am being to over protective. But like I said when we first got her she was really bad off. I know one thing she is going to be a HUGE lap dog. HAHA. It’s so funny cuz when she plays she will fetch the ball or rope and bring it right back to my lap and play in my lap. As soon as I sit on the floor she brings her rope to my lap.

And about the toys, omg! I have spent enough money on toys that I could have bought an xbox 360 and 3 games. Hahah. The only thing she really likes is socks and her rope we got her. I bought squeaky toys, a toy big enough for her to wrestle with, 2 kongs, 3 balls, a scarf tug-0-war thing and a few puppy nylon bones. The only thing she likes is socks and the purple rope. Haha. Makes me mad. I’m like “All the toys I buy you, you want to play with stinky military socks that smell like feet and cheese and a 1 rope that was $2.crazy puppy” hahah.

I have no objection to ear cropping either, it’s just so expensive. But I was wonder about pre posting. I practiced on my stuffed animals on posting. I just don’t want to traumatize her. She hates when I clean her ears. I try to mess with her ears and paws to get her use to being touched, but she is a buttface. Haha.

Lady Kate: Thank you. Her health battle was a struggle. I was so afraid of her having so many health problems. She wasn’t eating only drinking, she was very underweight, her legs scared me and then when I found out we got her at 6 months and all the stuff read I turned here and everyone has been so fantastic. I am glad I have this support. Now she has a lot of energy and in a way I wish she would sleep more often. But nope. This booger play hard and runs all over for 30 mins then passes out. She is crazy hyper. Haha.

So here are some photos of her now. I hope you all can see the weight gain in her and look at her hind legs. Thank you everyone for your support and being there for me to talk to. She is getting bigger and stronger every day and more stubborn too. haha.  My proud moment of her is the rope picture. She now jumps with her hind legs and can stand on her hind legs. It makes me soooo happy. The very last picture is when she was 8 weeks. She is now 10 weeks and will be 11 weeks on monday. :)

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Sorry for the above post I meant we got her at 6 weeks. She was 3.9 lbs. So I just said 4 lbs. She was so thin I could see her hips bones, her rib bones and her hind legs we so weak. It was scary.

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Yep, a small fortune in toys here too.  But....Don't throw out the toys just yet.  Our boy ignored several toys we bought at first until he was finished teething or until his mouth "grew" into them.  He eventually loved all of them at different times and for different reasons.  So, just tuck the ones away that she is ignoring now and you can bring them out later and most likely get a different response. 

And, a stinky sock is still his favorite tug toy ...

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Are you kidding?  All the toys in the world don't stack up to stinky socks!  Be really careful, though, socks can cause havoc if swallowed.  

What a face she has - cute as a button.

estioko04's picture
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Guys Please help me!!! I don’t know what has happened?!?!

Kira has always pooped and peed on her pee pads. But on Monday this week she poops and pees everywhere but the pads. All over the kitchen, our living room and now on the kitchen rug; I can’t take it anymore.

I spank her lightly and tell her with a firm “NO” and then put her on the pads. When she does go on the bad I praise her. But she hasn’t been on the pads for a week. I’m really losing my cool. She is really stressing me out.

I change her pads often so they don’t stink. I put 6 pads down so she has an area big enough to go in so she doesn’t pee or poo on the floor and it’s not helping.

Then last night when I was standing by her pen, she comes up to me and pees on my foot. I lost it and spanked her hard and yelled no. I began to cry. I have never had a dog like this before. They youngest puppy I have ever had was 5 months and he was a black lab/chow mix and then an 8 month pit bull. I have NEVER had these problems. They weren’t barkers or peed and pooped like this. I also never had a young puppy I have always adopted. We got her cuz my husband wanted one and guess who takes care of her 98% of the time….me.

I need advice please someone help me. All I have been doing is crying. She peed on the carpet 3 times today and I broke down in tears and put her in her pen and I am now typing this. I can’t do it. I am not strong enough and my husband isn’t helping.

She will be 11 weeks on Monday and has her 3rd set of shots. I cannot take her to any classes or outside until she has her 4th set of shots and rabies.

I watched all the puppy video I could on youtube, I called trainers for a free phone consult and even called the vets. Vets said I can put her on meds, but she is really young for that in my opinion. The trainers said I need to take her to classes but she isn’t fully vaccinated and no one will let me bring her to classes.

Please help me. I am losing it. Please.

I am thinking about creating another thread for this. But I want to see what you guys say first. Please help I'm breaking down and losing my marbles!

You need to think of her as an infant with no diaper! A puppy that young can't hold it and needs to go out about every 15-20 minutes while they are awake.... don't even let them on the carpet unless on a leash with you. 

I would also have the vet make sure she does not have a UTI - they are very common in young puppies ... and if she has one, then she can't control it at all.

She is a tiny baby - don't give up on her and spanking her is wrong.

Sorry, had to leave for a High School swim meet before I really could finish. 

 

Truly, don't expect any kind of an "ah ha" moment with house training till she is about 5 months old. It takes time and patience and an 11 week old has no idea yet. Patience and diligence is what it takes.... and consistency with getting her out all the time. If you have to leave her for hours, then expect a bit of a mess..... it is what it is. The pen is a good place - a raised bed might be a good idea as she might be able to keep that clean. If you are tempted to hit her, roll up a newspaper and .... hit yourself over the head with it while chanting, "I wasn't watching the puppy".  

I truly think you need to get her checked for a uti. Rule out medical issues before anything. 

No one ever said that raising a puppy is easy - it is hard work!  And, let me tell you that using an electric collar on a puppy that young would be considered animal abuse by ANYONE in the dog community..... so DONT even be tempted to. 

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Fitzmar: I wouldn’t use a shock collar on her, but I asked people on here because with all the people saying no I showed him the post showing I had people who agreed with me. I may not be experienced with Dobermans, but I have had lots of dogs and grew up on a farm so I know some things about animals. Haha. I knew shock collars aren’t okay, but men can be stubborn at times so I am glad he wore it and realized I was right. Haha.

We live in an apartment on the 2nd floor. I don’t not take her outside on the grass to pee because the vet said parvo is really bad in Calexico so if anyone came to visit family in my apartments complex and brought dogs, letting her pee in the same area will kill her because Doberman puppies have a horrible immune system and shouldn’t go outside until they have all 4 sets of shots.  So we set up a huge pee area for her by the hallway. I bought the xl pads and put 4 on them on the floor so it’s about 4 feet wide and 6 feet long. 

I watch her all the time but not matter what she pees and poos where she wants. I lost my cool once but I don’t hit her or beat her. I am sure everyone has lost their cool once with their puppy and spanked them.

Well after you mentioned the UTI I called and made an appointment. I didn’t know dogs can get uti’s. The vet said she doesn’t sound like she does just sounds like she is mad at you and laughed but he is gonna check her out on Monday.

I did go to the store and buy lavender pee pads and when she pees on the pads I give her chicken and say good girl. Before I only said good girl and praised her. Now I am giving her a treat with it and I have been 24hrs with no accident. Maybe she was mad at me because she wanted to play but I had finals and peeing and pooping was attention. Bad attention, but attention and maybe that’s what she wanted.

I also yelled at my husband about not helping me with the puppy and only playing his dumb video game. We fight over the game because I clean house, cook, do homework, study, work, play with her, take her to her appointments, clean up after her, train her, and groom her. All my husband does is come home right after work, pop in his game and that’s it. He pushes her away when she comes up to him.

So I read puppies will act out to get attention even if it’s bad attention. And I know it sounds bad but I’d choose this puppy over my husband so I hope he gets his act together he’s emotionally hurting the puppy.

estioko04's picture
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Hey guys.

So I know you have been there through all my thick and thin stories with my puppy Kira. It is sad to say though I am going to give her away.

Ever since I got her, I have had nothing but stress, no help from my husband and slacking on my homework and tests. I would get up 5-6 times a night to take care of her, play with her, feed her, train her, pay attention to her everything. My husband told me to get this puppy, but I never wanted a puppy. We took back a 2 year Doberman because my husband was upset that he was hard to train. Even though I wanted to stick it out, he wouldn’t let me and it caused a lot of fighting so I took him back.

Well now the same thing with this puppy. He promised me he would help me and doesn’t. His excuse is he pays for everything and works so he doesn’t have to. I’m a stay at home wife and I have is school, cleaning, cooking, taking care of the house and a dog; so my life is not hard.

We have been fighting for the last 3 days and today it got really bad today because the way he played with her. He plays with her really rough to the point she yelps and puts her tail between her legs. I told him to stop and go easy but he yells at me saying “well you wanted me to play with this damn puppy right?!”

 I cannot keep this puppy anymore.

I am not asking for a re-homing fee on here because I know everyone here loves Dobermans. I want her to go to a great home where the wife and husband won’t argue and fight and both people will take care of her 50/50. I want her to be happy and loved and not a burden.

I love Kira I really do and that is why I am looking to re-home her. I am also going to be looking for a place on my own. I am greatful this puppy made me see the true colors of my marriage. But I cannot keep Kira if I move because I will be staying with the only person I have here and they don’t allow Dobermans.

I live in El Centro, California. It’s 2 hours east of san diego, and 2 hours west of Yuma, AZ.

I want Kira to grow up with love and be happy and not be in a hostel home. I am NOT taking this baby to a shelter.

If anyone can help please email me. I know someone of you may hate me, some may shame me, But I know in my heart am I doing the right thing after what happened today.

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I'm so sorry this didn't work out for you, both about Kira and your marriage.  Please find a reputable rescue for her.  Don't try and rehome her yourself - even experienced rescuers sometimes misread people and inexperienced folks can be easily duped into thinking that their beloved pet it going somewhere safe.  You don't want Kira to go someplace REALLY BAD.  I don't know how much you know about how criminals use dogs, but trust me, you want to find a good rescue for her, not do it yourself.  

I wish I were closer, but I'm clear across the country and don't even know any rescues in California.  I'm sure if you google them you'll find one.  Try for a Doberman specific rescue.

There is no shame in doing the best you can; from your previous posts, it seems to me you have always had Kira's best interests at heart.

 

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please look at doberman rescues to place her don't just give her away please.....rescues that take on mixed breeds will also take her if a doberman rescue is out of the question but get her with a rescue......

Let us know when she has been placed so we can cease sharing her needing a home

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Hello everyone. It has been a rough month. SO here is my final and last update.

Kira is gone into a new home. She has a big backyard, she sleeps inside on a bed and is eating very well. I called Doberman Aztec Rescue in San Diego and one of the ladies helped me and came and got her last weekend. It was hard. I didn’t cry while they were here, but as soon as they left I balled like a freaking baby. I still have not washed the blanket that Kira slept in and I smell it every night before I go to bed. I know it can sound like torture to myself, but I really didn’t want to let her go but I know this is for the best because our home was toxic.

As for myself, I tried to put in paper work for the divorce but am having complications. But I am moving this month back to my old city and when I get settled Me, myself and only I am goin to get a older Doberman from the same rescue. We aregeed it’s not me it’s him ad she wouldn’t mind letting me adopt a older dobi.

As for my husband, I ruined his video game and the console, I have boycotted doing dishes, cleaning house, cooking and keeping track of his fantasy football stuff and I accidentally dropped his Iphone. Sooooo….I know it may sound harsh, but women cook, clean and play wifey because we love our men, not because it’s expected or a requirement and he’s now understanding that.

I am still pretty hurt about Kira. I miss her so much and sometimes when I am sitting here I hear her collar and I can hear her whining. The other day I came home from the gym and expected to see her, but then I remembered. It hurts a lot. But like I stated before, you can be mean to mean and I will handle it. But if you are mean to ANY animal espically a puppy, that’s it no more. I am glad Kira made me see his true colors because I didn’t know he could be that cold and I am now rethinking everything. I will miss her.

I want to Sincerely thank all of you for your thoughts, input and help and everything. Bless all of you and thank you so much. Please keep kira in your prayers I will.  

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OH MY I am so sorry for your loss, I know you did the right thing by her now it's time to do the right thing by you whatever that choice is do it for you....take time to grieve her loss and know that the rescue will place her properly and it's great that they understand your situation and are willing to work with you in the future with a new dog later on when you don't have a toxic household.....

When you get settled in let us know and stay with us you don't have to have a dobie to hang in here you just have to love the breed that's why I am here I do LOVE them very much but have rottweilers instead....