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Sheebaroo's picture
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Ok, so i see theres alot of people on the forums that hate bybs, well i'm sure there are a few of them that would follow the rules and more than likely do whats mandatory by law at the present time. Read this next part slowly, you will not stop these people, good or bad ones, by telling others not to get dogs from them. You may rob a few pups of loving, careing homes, but something has to be done with the pup that didn't get sold. And if it's not a good BYB with the pup, use your imagination on what happens to that pup.

Kevin, who is the top Dobermann authority ? That is my first question and until i have the answer, i can go no further.

Seriously?  So you think we should just ignore them and the damage they do to the breed I love with a passion??  Sorry honey, but I will continue to educate about bybers till the day I die.  I have made a difference with some people and every time I change someones mind away from buying from a byb, it is a personal victory.  I've seen whole and part litters turned over to rescue - if they can't sell them they will stop producing them... simple as that.  Yes every puppy deserves a great home, but do you really think that most of the puppies produced by bybers go to good homes?? I can tell you that many don't. If they did, they would not be ending up in shelters and rescues in record numbers.

If the puppies that a byber can't sell ends up in rescue, then that is one lucky puppy!! The cycle of breeding will be stopped for THAT puppy.

Sheebaroo's picture
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I did not say ignore them, the thread asks, quite simply really --- do you want to get rid of BYBs ? Clearly you think what you are doing is helping, i see it as hurting, you are risking giving a dog a good home, no matter what you think you are doing for the breed. Ok Fitz, i will ask everyone, who is the top authority on Dobermanns ? 

Just answer that, and we can move on to a real fix to the problem. And i do agree it is a problem, and there has to be a better way to correct it than to tell people not to give homes to some pups.

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I might not be a doberman parent but I would think the "Doberman Standard" for the breed is the authority not a person per se'........ and the Standard has particulars for each breed whether dobermans, rotties, aussies, etc. There is a standard that has to be met. That standard also states something to the effect that breeders should be bettering the breed, that would mean that the health issues noted as problem areas for the breed in that same Standard should be tested for and bred out when possible to "better the breed", if a breeder is not testing and striving to eradicate health issues and to create the standard required among a list of other things to long to list here, then they are not responsible breeders.

That's my take on it.

There is a difference between backyard breeder and puppy mill. The casual breeder may only have one litter or two a year and only have one set of parents that they breed whereas the puppy mill has sometimes hundreds of dogs breeding, birthing and dying all at once. You may find that the backyard breeder will do a couple of health tests and may charge extra to do so, but the puppy mill will NEVER test for health issues. With the doberman the ear crop and tail dock will most likely not be done by the backyard breeder and if done by the puppymill you can be rested assured it most likely was done without meds and not in a sterile environment by someone not trained to do ANY surgery of any kind, the puppymill will not use any anesthesia for any procedure but some procedures are done on site - horrid just horrid, where the backyard breeder just won't do these things because of costs and not wanting to care for ears etc. Either one that you buy a puppy from is going to continue to sell puppies - cause there will always be a buyer. The backyard breeder may just give it up one day when the dog parents die from some health problem from over breeding or incorrectly caring for their dogs, or they will just tire of it over time but the puppy mill will never go away. And the backyard breeder will then consider themselves knowledgable and possibly help someone else to get started or find a new breed to breed themselves and it starts all over again. Not buying puppies will not make either of them go away - cause there will always be a buyer......Puppymills exist because there is always a buyer - who doesn't care who they get their cute dog from, they just want their cute dog......the amount of puppy mills that exist just goes to show how lucrative the "cute puppy" business is, until that puppy grows up and has major health issues, then it ends up in rescue......it is the bane of rescue organizations cause we know that neither the Backyard breeder or puppymills will go completely away. Informing the public so that they will see the reasons not to buy from either is key, but money usually wins out and the person offering a puppy/dog within the budget wins out over the fully health tested and quality dog.

It's a heart wrenching subject for those of us in rescue, and one that will be here for as long as people are alive... hope some of this was helpful......

The top authority for Dobermans in the USA is the DPCA - Doberman Pinscher Club of America.  Read the breeder ethics and our breed standard and you will find that my ideas pretty much come from the top. www.dpca.org

 

And yeah, I'd like to see ignorent bybers go away. Just because there is a market for those puppies does not make it right.  Many people who buy a puppy shouldn't own a hamster much less a puppy. 

KevinK's picture
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Here's how I see it.  Unethical breeders typically breed for 1 reason, and 1 reason only.  They don't care about health, they don't do temperement testing, they don't find suitable mates.  They mate dogs they own, making it a breeding of convenience.  They don't do health testing, this is why their dogs are so cheap.  They usually sell them as "family pets".  Because they don't do health testing, and typically don't know anything about the pedigrees they are working with, they really can't say that they're breeding healthy dogs.  Well, I guess they can say that, but the proof is in the pudding. 

Anyways, the way to get rid of them, is by not giving them your money.  This is what they want.  They have not taken the time to understand what is involved in good breedings.  Some of them make a concious decision to not do these things, even with the info available.  Some simply don't know better.  Many of us made  mistakes when purchasing dogs, because we didn't know better.  Does that make us bad people?  I wouldn't say so, as long as we learn from our mistake, and look at the big picture.  You say we should actually support back yard breeders?  Let me ask a question in return.  Where do you think the vast majority of dogs that get killed, abandoned, dumped in shelters, left tied to a tree to fend for his/her own, etc. come from?

My current dog Dakota was in a kill shelter at 6 weeks old because she didn't sell fast enough.  She was not raised propperly, and we know nothing about her genetic history, not unlike back yard breeders.  2 years later, we are still dealing with fear issues.  She is trained to competitive levels, we do obedience, nosework, and bitework.  She is trained in scent detection, and can find anything if you let her get a sniff.  She seems like the most confident dog in the world, and the general observer would think she is.  But we are still dealing with fear issues, if my wife and I get in an argument, she will sit in the corner and cower.  If you yell at her, she will submissive pee on the floor.  She will tremble if you get upset with her.  Luckily, she doesn't do too many things that upset us lol.

Point is, this is more common than you know.  When these dogs don't sell, they go in kill shelters.  I have had rescue animals all of my life, and I agree with your statement that every animal deserves a great home.  But, at what expense?  When you willingly choose to support an unethical breeder, you are contributing to the downfall of the breeds we love.  THey are breeding unproven, untested dogs that should not be bred.  "I love my pet and he's sweet and has a great temperement" is not a reason to breed a dog.  Someone asking you on the street if you're going to have a litter, because they will buy a pup, is not a reason to breed your dog.  Having a male and a female does not mean they have to be bred.  The list goes on.  But, when you choose to support these breeders, and fund they're future breedings, what are you really helping?  That 1 dog you "saved" may put 5 others in a kill shelter, because the local rescues are short staffed, can't afford more animals, and are over-worked as it is.  And that's not something that I see as a positive.

I choose to never support these kinds of breeders, and it's a topic that I feel very strongly about.  If more people stopped buying from these breeders, they will disapear.  They only care about their checkbook, and you have more power to stop them than you know.  But to think that you are saving a life by purchasing from an unethical breeding is not correct in the least.  That 1 life may have been "saved" at the expense of many, many others.

talisin's picture
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Just because there is a market for those puppies does not make it right. Many people who buy a puppy shouldn't own a hamster much less a puppy.

Boy Fitzmar is that not the truth!!! Some people don't even need to have a mechanical puppy pet......I think it's horrible the way that animals pay the price for humans desiring something cute, cuddly and free.......

Luke_Sian's picture
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@ KevinK  Truly loved and agreed with every single word you have typed! Well Said and Thank you!

Kevin K wrote a great post!  He isn't a breeder so can't be looked at as the "competition" - LOL!  I don't think that most people realize that good ethical breeders are not competition for the bybers - we are not on the same level at all.  AND being that I've only produced 3 litters in my 20 years in this breed, I'm not exactly populating the world with Dobermans ;-)

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As I was reading this thread, I had some of the same thoughts as kevink.  I have been in both situations.  When I was younger, I looked in the "Penny Saver" for a dog that my husband and I wanted.  We did get a "cheap" price for out puppy.  And he was one of the best friends my husband had for 12 years.  but the litter wasn't registered and there was not health tests.  We were young and had no idea how wrong this was.   Out Zeke had health issues we were not prepared for.  That is another reason byb, do a disservice.  Most reputable breeders will screen the potential buyers.  A byb isn't concerned if you have the means, the time or the money to care for this puppy long term.  If we had been screened by a RESCUE organization, they may not have let us get a puppy!.  Because we didn't have the MONEY for his health issues.  His allergies were so bad, he had constant ear infections that led to bacteria infections, from the allergies. Just to have his ears cleaned and rinsed and treated was too expensive for us due to his size the anesthesia was very expensive. If we had the money we would have been able to get him tested, and give him the proper care.
 He lived twelve years, but at least 3 of those years were miserable ear problems.

See, reputable breeders, screen out or breed out (or try) health issue and behavioral traits.If they have a puppy that isn't suited for breeding, it is neutered or spayed per contract and not intended for breeding at all.  The reputal breeders are trying to perfect the standard as talisan said. 

After I was enlightened, I went to rescues for my potentionl pets.  These dogs, cats, are basically throw always.  Ember was born in a shelter from a female breeder, her sole purpose was to produce puppies.  For profit.  And Ember is our little Sweetheart, but she also has fear issues, she is very insecure and fearful.  I think this is a genetic trait, and nobody cared to keep producing  this trait. Several of her littermates have the same issues.    And a fearful, insecure Doberman is not the kind of dog just anyone should have.  And I hve no idea if there will be health problems down the line.  BUT now I can afford it. And the Rescue screens for that.  There are allot of byb that look really good, Zeke was well taken cared for. He was a clean happy puppy.  Everything looks good on the outside and not all are "evil money making machines", but most likely than not aren't concerned with the breed standard.

If you don't really see a problem here, then look at ALL the shelters and rescues that have at least 45% Pit Bulls or Pit mixes.   Not only are they bred for fighting, there are SO many byb selling Pit puppies.  Look at all the shelters and you will see allot of big breed dogs, why? because people buy from byb and have no clue what they are in for, byb don't screen potential buyers. These dogs end up being "too much" for most people to handle.  And you will notice allot of these dogs are adolescents, when they start to become...challenging.  (lol) Most people going to get a puppy, are not prepared for what it all entails, and it is DOUBLE for a breed like a Doberman.  

I could go on, truthfully, sheebaroo,  I totally understand what you are saying about saving a puppy,  but truthfully you really don't get what we are saying,  for the breed.

Sorry,  I didn't mean for this to be a lecture, just hope I let you see the other side of the matter and why most people on the forum are against byb.

KevinK's picture
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Agree with all.  How many shelters/rescues/pounds/kill facilities etc. are completely overwheled, RIGHT NOW.  Where do these dogs come from?  Let's look at some of the biggest reasons why these dogs are there.  These results are from a year long study conducted at multiple rescue facilities across the country:

 

  • Landlord not allowing pet
  • Too many animals in household
  • Cost of pet maintenance
  • Inadequate facilities
  • No homes available for litter mates
  • Having no time for pet

In other words, the people that are buying these dogs should have never been able to get them.  Good breeders, rescues, etc. do their homework for a reason, because they don't want their dogs to turn up dead, in shelters, kill facilities, or left in the yard to rot and fend for themselves.

TODAY, nearly 20,000 animals WILL be dumped at shelters, and while a few may have legit reasons, almost every one of them should have not been placed with the owners that purchased them.  Half of them WILL be killed, meaning every day, approx. 10,000 animals are put down.  It makes me shutter to think how many animals were killed while I wrote this post.  

 

For the above reasons, this is why you are in no way, shape or form saving lives by purchasing from unethical breeders, and when you look at the facts, it makes it easier to see why.    

 

I will never, in a million years, under ANY circumstance do something to help increase the #'s of innocent animals killed every single second, and it's something that I fight daily with all of my heart.  I often kick myself for not having the time to foster, help rehab and train animals that have been neglected, abused, abandoned, etc.   For this reason, sometimes my posts come across as "harsh", yet I assure you it's just because I tend to not convey myself well in writing.  It's something I have been working on, meaning, not typing the same way I speak.  

AlphaAdmin's picture
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I was thinking about creating a honey trap for would-be bybers on our site. I would label it, "How to breed Dobermans," or "Doberman breeding," or something similar. I'd start the article out in a way that hooks people in, but then turn things around, dash the inane fantasies first-time breeders often have.

This is how it works, I think. Someone decides to get a dog. They figure, hey, let's get a fancy pure bred dog. So they start looking, imagining that there are free dogs out there or dog for $50, 'pure bred'. After all, what does it cost to let two dogs breed and raise a batch of young? We've all watched cartoon. It's nothing.

After looking in the paper they are first frustrated by the prices, $300, $350, etc. Three-hundred dollars for a dog!?!?!? But then they realize, hey, I've got some space, I could use some cash, I like dogs. How do I get in on this easy money?

So they buy some dogs, thinking of it as a quick investment, and there we go. It's a backyard breeder.

If we can catch some of these people between the steps of realizing all the fabulous wealth inherent with breeding dogs, and actually buying dogs for breeding, we might actually prevent some backyard breeding.  We would have to keep them interested in reading, and at the same time convey the following:

1. Breeding is dangerous for all animals involved, especially for the high-maintenance Doberman, and requires a lot of experience to whelp a litter.

2. Breeding is EXPENSIVE, and a lot of WORK! Even if you're irresponsible and don't test the parents, there are numerous expenses, and if you don't want to lose puppies after the litter is born, it's a 24-hour weeks-long challenge to your sanity. One person at least needs to 'man' the litter at all times, including at night. It's a full-time job, in other words. Not something that happens on its own while you're at work.

3. Even if you don't care where the puppies go, unless you're an already established breeder, finding homes is extremely difficult. Puppies are not money in the bank. The average idiot who buys from the average breeder wants a 'puppy'. And Doberman puppies are only 'puppies' until about 10 week. After that they are horrible little dogs. So you only have about a week or two to make your 'sales'. It's a business that has year-round expenses, but the door is only open for two weeks, if that. So you're usually left with several very hungry very destructive 'dogs' that you'll have to give away. 

4. If you've seen the $1000 dogs online, put that out of your mind entirely. People that pay that do not buy from unestablished first-time breeders, nor do they buy puppies without champion lines or without thorough health screenings on the parents. The cost of parents with champion lines and proper health screens is many thousands of dollars, money you'll never make back because you'll be trying to sell your puppies in the paper for $300.

5. If you want to make money off animals, open a doggie-daycare. It's less work. I you simply want to make extra money, rent your spare room out to a recent immigrant, use your spare time to learn a marketable skill, or talk to an Amway representative about exciting opportunities in your area.

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bet 1941's picture
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ok here is my take on this.. I am a person that loves Dobes and I know next to nothing about breeding.. and what i do know convinced me not to breed my poodles .. I have friends that are breeders and I know what they go thru and really dont make much money if they do at all.

It turned out i bought a female poodle.. then i had this great idea I was going to get a male and make some money.. well the  male i got had a leg socket problem and my female wasnt perfect either.. dont get me wrong they were my pets and they were spoiled and loved.. But I realized after talking to breeders and being on a group online with breeders and reading the posts I came close to making a big mistake..  I got levi from a good breeder who called me that Levi was going over the show size and would I want him.. But otherwise I would save up the money and find a breeder I could work with..

I have been on computer groups and listened and see both sides and I am convinced that i dont thing you are going to stop byb .. but with education like on these forums the people buying purebreds will be more careful..

and for some people shouldnt own a mouse.. I know plenty of them too...

So to conclude this and in my senior years I will get a rescue.. If you cant affored a purebred this is a good thing to do.. Money wasnt the issue here but I think It is my time for rescuing a dobe.  I am just not decided on the age..

hugs

Bet

AlphaAdmin's picture
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If anyone wants to start corroborating on such an article, or set of articles, feel free. I'll put them in the main site.

bet 1941's picture
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Alpha,

I didn not red your post until after i posted.. but you will see I agree with you lol

hugs 

Bet

Sheebaroo's picture
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It's a heart wrenching subject for those of us in rescue, and one that will be here for as long as people are alive... hope some of this was helpful......

Talisin, VERY HELPFUL, tyvm. I'm at work at the moment as soon as i get home i see i have a heck of alot of reading and learning to catch up on. It may take me a few hours to respond, please be patient with me.

 

 

 

 

mackerboys mom's picture
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Wow I love all this passion about the Doby breed!I also agree that all puppy mills should be run out of Dodge and as for bybs I do agree with yall 99 percent should never breed for pups cause they can't sell all of them and they do go to idiots and end up in the pound or rescues plus they do not screen for health issues I of all people should know that Mackerboys grave is proof enough!But as long as there are people there will be bybs,reputable breeders will just keep on doing what they do an educate people an pray that some day people wake up an there will be no need for resce groups and animal shelters but not in my lifetime!I will most likely catch a lot of flack for these words but here goes, I checked into buying a puppy from reputable breeders and the prices started at 500. most were 1200. an up an that was not with their ears done,and I don't know about some of you but I can't afford that, some of you will say well you don't need a dog then but that would be unfair because I do take care of my kids they don't lack vet care or food or love,I do understand what you are all saying and I totatly agree with you but on the other hand I would never be able to afford a Doby if not for the rescue groups as for bybs I personally will not do that again so what is the best solution?Yall keep up the good fight!

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Mackersboy, in that situation, I would suggest a dog from a rescue.  You're likely going to get the same dog, for less money than the bad breeder anyways, and if you choose a good rescue, you will have alot of support.  Not to mention, you are helping a good cause, and not supporting future unethical breedings.  

I'm not in the least anti-breeder, not even remotely close.  But for those that can't afford a pup from a good breeder, I would suggest the rescue route as opposed to shady breeders.  We have to remember that the breeds we love are that way because the good breeders adhere to the standard, and make sure that they are only breeding quality dogs that display these traits.  

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The top authority for Dobermans in the USA is the DPCA - Doberman Pinscher Club of America. Read the breeder ethics and our breed standard and you will find that my ideas pretty much come from the top. www.dpca.org

Ty ,Fitz ---- i have all kinds of ideas and that gives me a starting point, i want to read the rest of the replys first though, before i speak any further on the issue.  

 

 

 

 

 

Sheebaroo's picture
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Here's how I see it. Unethical breeders typically breed for 1 reason, and 1 reason only. They don't care about health, they don't do temperement testing, they don't find suitable mates. They mate dogs they own, making it a breeding of convenience. They don't do health testing, this is why their dogs are so cheap. They usually sell them as "family pets". Because they don't do health testing, and typically don't know anything about the pedigrees they are working with, they really can't say that they're breeding healthy dogs. Well, I guess they can say that, but the proof is in the pudding.

Right there ^^^^ i dont think the Laws on breeding dogs are up to date, when was the last time a Law was passed that was aimed at controling K9 population ? And by Law,i mean if you break the Law you are doing 3 to 6 no questions no plea downs < ---- There is the way i think it should be done, money is a man made evil thing, so i think nothing of handing mine over if it comes to a dog i want, unfortunitly i can only have one dog at a time, my time alotment is in a stranglehold and will be for a while. Denying any dog a chance at a good home is wrong, in my eyes you will never justify it to me. To an extent i and some others will just always disagree with that part i guess.

Some simply don't know better.

On that part there, to me, and this is the way I see it, Online forums play a very small part in weather or not some of the people sell their dogs. Case in point --- > Me, i used another person as a guinea pig without ever going online to research anything, and if i had went online ? I would have had to still rely on seeing how that persons dog was doing, because theres not much info out there on her breeder.

Heck if you knew the breeder you might think they are ok, they breed good bloodlines, their health testing may be lacking, i think some mentioned that at another site. To me nothing jumped out about them, until the face to face meeting, thats when i got red flags flying, and i wasnt leaving without my dog at that point, the dog immeaditly took to me and i was bringing her home. ^^ Read that part carefully Kevin.

I want to read and respond to what others have took the time to say here, i'm sure we will interact here some more, just bare with me for a while.

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Kevink,I do have a rescue Doby his name is Hoss,I got my Mackerboy from a byb and he passed away 4 monthes ago this wednesday he had just turned 5 yrs the week before he passed away from a bad heart which I later found out ran in his breeding, I was like all the rest I didn't know any better at the time and I will not do that again but I do not for a minute reget lovein him he was awsome!An Hoss is to in his own right, he saved me I know that, I wish I could save them all but there are so many the people know not what they do or don't care cause they keep on a breeding and the shelters keep on fillin up it is so easy to have your dog spayed or nuetered I do not understand why more people don't do this to me it makes a better dog it's like you all say the all mighty dollar!

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Sheebaroo,

We are all allowed opinions, but it is a fact that simply cannot be disputed, by giving money to unethical breeders, you are endangering more dogs than you're saving.  That part, is simply not an opinion.  While yes, it can be looked at as "saving a life", how many lives are endangered in the process?  

The vast majority of dogs in shelters & kill facilities are from unethical breeders.  Again, this is not opinion.  It is EXTREMELY unlikely to find a well bred, champion bloodline dog in one of these places.  There's reasons for that...  How many of these other dogs are there, because people thought they were saving a life?  But in the process, they were endangering many, many lives.  So, like I said in the other post, when you look at the big picture, is choosing to support an unethical breeder really saving a life?  Or is it a possible death sentance for multiple dogs?

In an above post, I listed some of the most common reasons why dogs are dumped.  This is real data...  Why were these people allowed to have these dogs?  It's simple.  Unethical breeders value the dollar more than an animals life.  One of the #1 reasons, landlord wouldn't allow them a dog?  Or already have too many animals?  Don't have the time or money?  Then how did they get that dog?  Why did the breeder not find this info out?  This should be one of the absolute first questions a breeder should ask.  But, when they don't care about the outcome of the dog, it doesn't matter, so they don't ask these types of things.  Whoever coughs up a check gets the dog.  And giving these types of breeders your money, while yes, you're saving that 1 dog, puts many others at risk.  

So again, I ask, how is that saving lives, and how is this viewed as a positive?

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Sorry, I didn't mean for this to be a lecture, just hope I let you see the other side of the matter and why most people on the forum are against byb.

Sandee,

Dont be sorry, you have stated nothing to be sorry for, i do get what you guys are saying. I just think there are better ways to handle things, honestly thats the big difference here, i think we all agree some people should not be allowed to breed and some shouldn't be afforded the oppertunity to care for a hamster ( ala as Kevin stated ). But it still gose on, and why, because there are no real Laws being broke, and thats where i think the fight should be.

 

 

 

 

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I have read through these posts in my free time and keep wondering the same thing...What is the real intent of Sheebaroo? Are you in support of BYB or against it, why does it seem that you are somewhat aggravated of combative of the stance and passion that many have taken.

Alpha I truly enjoyed what you have said. I am one of those people who had no idea what the costs of a puppy would be. My family has owned many dogs and the have always been rescues from other individuals getting rid of them. My mom has "pure bred" Dalmatian that the owners could not sell and wanted to get rid of him. They were your typical BYBers, unfortunately we were unaware of this and these people were friends of my brother. The puppy was 5 months old and he was given to my brother for free. He is a pretty well adjusted dog today but he came with his own set of problems.

When I decided I wanted a dog of my own I started searching the internet, my first choice was a Malamute, I found a breeder who was connected with a rescue site as well. She recently had a litter and informed me of costs and I thought, really!? She then recommended I look into rescue as well. I did more research, soul searching and realized that it was not a cost I was prepared for at the time. But continuing my research I became more interested in rescuing, I could help an animal in need. With all the extra money I could care for my new pet without straining my budget. I adopted Loki from the local shelter, his records state that he was a Doberman/lab mix. This is what lead me to this site. I must say that although we have found that Loki while having the height and weight probably has very, very little dobie in him (he is lab/pitbull) but this site has been invaluable in the information it has afforded me to care for him. I thank the group for allowing us to be honorary members. When and if I should choose to get another puppy, pure breed or otherwise, I am armed with some very good knowledge.

So I still wonder Sheebaroo what is your purpose, to assist in educating or to launch an attack on others' views. Just wondering...

BTW, I have not mentioned it in the past but I owned a dobie many years ago, my husband brought a 4 month puppy home one day, out of the blue. Without my knowledge because HE could not deal with him anymore he rehomed my Baby, that was his name. I rarely talk about him because I was crushed, he told me he was stolen from the yard, years later it slipped out. I had him for only a few months but loved him very much.

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TODAY, nearly 20,000 animals WILL be dumped at shelters, and while a few may have legit reasons, almost every one of them should have not been placed with the owners that purchased them. Half of them WILL be killed, meaning every day, approx. 10,000 animals are put down. It makes me shutter to think how many animals were killed while I wrote this post.

So Kevin, how do you think this ^^^ should be fixed ? 20k a day dumped off, i dont think telling people on the internet not to get this or that dog for whatever reason is working, it certinly isn't curbing the trend if it's still that high. As responsible care givers for dogs ( never liked the term owner ) i think we ought to at least try to have something done.

 

For the above reasons, this is why you are in no way, shape or form saving lives by purchasing from unethical breeders, and when you look at the facts, it makes it easier to see why.

I never said anything about saving lives, what i said was, dont rob a dog of a chance at a good home.

If you choose to see that sentence as saving lives, so beit, i relate it to -- dont rob peter to pay paul. 

 

 For this reason, sometimes my posts come across as "harsh", yet I assure you it's just because I tend to not convey myself well in writing. It's something I have been working on, meaning, not typing the same way I speak. 

Dont sweat it, i know for a fact you know exactly what your doing when it comes to dogs, but this is a big issue and i think it stinks to disagree with you to any extent on the matter, but we do disagree.

 

 

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It's not this complicated Sheebaroo. The more puppies bad breeders dump at shelters the better. It's simple economics. If they sell puppies they will create more to sell. If they can't sell them, and resort to dumping them, they won't be so inclined. You don't get illegal drug off the street by buying drugs from a dealer. And you don't help puppies by buying them from bad breeders. Both just obtain more to sell. Better to get dogs from a rescue.

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Cynister or whatever your id is, i do not see any combative posts by myself anywhere in this thread, sorry dont see it. And i'm not trying to attack anyone, i KNOW there is a problem with some people that breed, i am just trying to figure out a better way to deal with the problem. If it bugs you that i am doing so, sorry, there are other threads on this forum for you to read. 

 

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It's not this complicated Sheebaroo.

 

If its not that complicated Alpha, why did 10,000 dogs get put down today ? I think some are over simplifying the fix, and the problem may only grow unless real steps are taken to curb it.

 

It's simple economics. If they sell puppies they will create more to sell. If they can't sell them, and resort to dumping them, they won't be so inclined. You don't get illegal drug off the street by buying drugs from a dealer. And you don't help puppies by buying them from bad breeders. Both just obtain more to sell. Better to get dogs from a rescue.

I'm not buying into that theroy at all, if it was that simple, it would have been fixed by now.

 

Can we talk about how to get Laws passed with some REAL bite to them ? How hard can it be to get a Law passed that states you may only breed once a year, one litter per breeder, sorry puppy mills you will have to close shop. I'm not a breeder nor have i ever bred anything, had a datsun once that was prego when we found her, other than that ---- nuttin.

 

 

 

 

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I think the total of dogs destroyed each day is much higher than 10,000 I will see if I can find those stats.

I have to admit that my doberman girl that I miss so very much was purchased through the local paper for $50, when I saw her I knew I was 'rescuing' her from the guy who was selling her, there was no way when I saw her that I would leave her with him. This was before the news about BYB was so prevalent. Back in the late 80's. When I got the doberman I also had my collie that was show quality and I was intending on showing him and was working on training him for the local rings when my hip broke leaving me unable to ever show him; but his qualities were so wonderful I began a mad reading journey to learn all I could about the breed and during this time someone popped up and said "hey your collie is gorgeous I have a female can he be a stud dog?" I was horrified, my husband was interested and I said NO I then educated my husband on everything I had read and learned and he was horrified after the fact. But then a friend of ours had fallen in love with our collie and she decided she wanted to breed collies, now you get that order of things, she didn't own a collie, she just loved mine and decided to breed on that knowledge alone!!!! she began pumping me for information on collies and I talked collies with her for a long long time and lo and behold she was breeding - she did things in reverse order she took what little knowledge I had and applied it to her two collies and bred them, THEN she began showing - duh, a bit backwards, but she did become more interested in showing than breeding thank god, but it seems to be something that people have no idea what order to do things in or how to breed correctly etc. and then you get people out for money only and don't care about the dogs at all. Breed rescues exist because of BYB and puppy mills so I don't understand why people avoid breed rescues and you can tell what breeds are the current trend by looking to see how many breed rescues exist for that particular breed.

I visited this girl who took on the collie breeding then showing, and when I arrived she had a tri color male off to himself and as I approached he began losing his mind he was so aggressive and threatening that it was just not anything like a collie's behavior, I asked her what she was going to do with him and she said she was going to breed him to that female over there and pointed to a very shy timid female, I told her she was crazy that first it didn't take a genius to see that neither temperament was anything that should be reproduced and she actually listened and she rehomed both of them, which shocked me, but she got completely out of the breeding when she got into showing because she became aware of what she was doing wrong.

My thing is since no one teaches anything about this subject in school - unless you have enough smarts to have idea that you should study up on breeding before tackling it you just walk into it thinking it's just a couple of great dogs what's the harm. It's kinda like "igornance of the law" you don't know so how can you be guilty of something you knew nothing about???

It is such a complicated god awful mess, some people learn like that girl did, but others just enjoy the attention and the money and care nothing for the dogs future. Then rescue comes in and saves those that they can and fight to find proper homes for the dogs......I just seem to go round in circles on this subject cause one mistake leads to another to another and then a dog dies......and I can't seem to make sense of the whole thing.....to me it's simple but to others they are oblivious - education is the only way and yet the byb is the hard one to identify to people cause it's so "innocent" to most observers, the puppy mills get to most because of the sheer volume of dogs but the byb people sympathize with cause it's just a couple of dogs, right?.......I think rescues need to go into the schools and do events to educate about the byb issues but would it work???

Until laws can protect against abuse like what vick did to his dogs I doubt any laws will be effective on this issue, it's just not a priority to the community, but I personally agree laws have to change I just resign myself to the fact that most people don't care enough about the animals today to change laws to help them......

still going round in circles will close now......

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sheebaroo, it gets fixed by helping a few people at a time understand the seriousness of their decisions, and how those decisions affect the rest of the dogs out there.  Is everyone going to stop buying from byb's because they read a post online?  It's absurd to think so.  But, the same can be said about everything negative in life.  That doesn't mean we give up the fight for what we are passionate about.  Some become police officers to fight crime, some try to make others aware of the dangers of drugs, and why they shouldn't take them.  Some do lectures on why not to smoke.  Does the audience all of a sudden give up whatever they're doing, because someone told them not to?  Not a chance.  But, those few people that begin to change the way they see things, and in turn, help a few others change the way they see things is the way to do it.  I can't control what anyone else does, but I can control what I choose, and for me, that's enough.  If someone else reads one of my posts, and learns or starts thinking about something, than that's an added bonus.  Anyone that willingly supports a byb, and gives them money, is in my opinion worse than that breeder, because they understand what goes on, and what happens to the dog, and throws caution to the wind for selfish reasons.  If someone is that concerned about giving a dog a good home, go to a local kill facility, and save an animal that is going to die today.  Call a shelter, and save that dog from a life of being locked in a kennel.  Stop giving money to unethical breeders, there's plenty of dogs that are not from a breeder that need a loving home.  But, by giving money to one of these breeders, you are hurting more than you are helping.

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LOL @Sheebaroo you have already proven my point by your response to me. You are exactly as I suspected. BTW -the ID spelling of my name is quite easy to see as was yours. Good luck in your continued useless drivel.

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Quote:
If its not that complicated Alpha, why did 10,000 dogs get put down today ? I think some are over simplifying the fix, and the problem may only grow unless real steps are taken to curb it.

 

They got put down because people continue to choose to support unethical breeders, continue to disregard the facts, and continue to think that they are doing animals a service, when in reality, they are doing significantly more harm than good.  They get put down because unethical breeders don't screen homes propperly.  They get put down because people that shouldn't own a dog have no problem purchasing from unethical breeders, because again, all they care about is turning a quick buck.  They get put down because when a dog doesn't sell, that cuts into profit margins, so the dogs get dumped.  

I think I said, don't remember if it was here or somewhere else, my girl was in a high kill shelter, scheduled to be put down at 6 weeks old.  SIX WEEKS.  She was spayed at that time, by rookie students that didn't know what they were doing, as is often the case at high kill shelters.  Because really, who cares if a mistake is made, and the dog dies, they're scheduled to die anyways, right?

Too many people don't think about the consequences of their actions.  Too many people contact unethical breeders after they are turned away, for GOOD REASON by ethical breeders, rescues & shelters.  Too many people are too selfish to understand that they don't have the time, money, or other means to raise a dog and give the care they need.  People put their emotions before the well being of animals.  Too many people don't take the time to research, and understand the breeds they are buying.  Too many people buy a dog because it looks cool, or their kid wants one, etc.  Too many buy with their heart, not their brain.  The list goes on.

A big one, is that too many people think that they are robbing a dog of a loving home, and not seeing the big picture, as in this post here, the reason why we are having this discussion.  Until we change the way we think, and put more priority on the lives of the animals, nothing will change, ever.  Again, we can't change the world, and put an end to the bad things that happen.  But, we can choose to not support people, under any circumstances, that continue to add to the problems we are passionate about.

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Sheebaro, simple does not equate easy. It is simple. If you 'rescue' a puppy from a bad breeder, the breeder makes another puppy. Net change in miserable dogs = 0. If you rescue a puppy from the pound, the breeder who made it doesn't get paid, thus will be less inclined to make another. Net change in miserable dogs -1.

How difficult could it be to pass your law? lol Very difficult... Better questions are: how difficult would it be to find a legislator willing to write a rational law. What would be your argument for such a law? 10,000 dogs destroyed per day? What bureaucracy will administer these litter licenses? How could it every be enforced? Do backyard breeders usually have more than one litter per year anyway? Will such a law hinder good breeders who have a long waiting list that includes police and military working dogs? What other unintended consequences might we enjoy? Could the large amount of tax revenue allocated for this program be better used?

Indeed, when you come from the perspective that laws are needed to solve problems, things do become rather complicated.

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I almost unknowingly bought from a backyard breeder / puppy mill until i posted on here and everyone posed interesting questions.  Thanks guys u saved me.

I found another breeder who i visited and was great so i put a deposit down on his next litter.

Thing is i cant afford the $3,000 for a top show dog.  The breeder i found is $1,800 but i am getting what i want.  Parents have all applicable health tests and are healthy, great temperment and socialization and great looking conforming dogs.  I am not going to any shows, i just want a great pet to add to my family.  Honestly i feel like i am getting a top quality dog and am very happy with my choice of breeder.

someone told me during my search if i cant afford the top quality puppy then i should rescue instead, i didnt think that was fair.

let me play devils advocate for a second here...

if everyone bought from those top breeders they would end up raising their price even more to like $5,000 because of basic supply and demand laws.  Yes the demand and price would eventually drop and level out but it would still be higher than what its at right now.  More than half of us would probably be out of the doberman market.

Lets be honest here a big part of the decision is the cost.  If everyone could get a top quality show dog for the price of a byb or mill dog they would.

the affordable reputable breeders are out there, u just gotta look hard.  One suggestion i have is always visit the breeder before purchasing.

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if the reputable breeder charged $5,000or more, they wouldn't sell many. There might be puppies of great quality out there for that price, but they would have outstanding quality.  And a wonderful health gaurantee too.  you don't always get what you pay for though.  Just because there is a hefty price tag on something, doesn't make it quality.  I am not sure we have you totally convinced yet.  Take for example you are looking for the latest iphone.  go to Best Buy, & meet a guy with an unmarked van in the parking lot.  He tells you he just delivered to the store, but brought too many iphones & Best Buy won't take the rest.  so he offers you one really cheap.  When your new iphone doesn't weork, he's no where to be found.   Same with puppy mills & BYB'rs.  People here have experience for you to help you on your quest to finding the right breeder.  i could tell you i am a quality breederand decieve you.  you don't know me.  i am offering no proof or references.  What i am  trying to get across here is that they should provide proof.  Give you permission to research thier proof, vet, past customers, etc.

I would put the name of the breeder on here & location.  The pros here will advise you if they truly are what they claim to be.

Did this breeder ask you a multitude of questions?  If not, that's your first bad sign.  Nothing wrong with asking  folks here, we learn here together, one post / question at a time.  No one here was born 'the leading authority on Dobes'

Rescuing is great too.  Myself, I have had more young adults than puppies.  All turned out to be wonderful pets.  It is a great thing to research your purchase.  You did cobme to the right place.  

The way one person put it was correct.  If you buy from  BYB or puppy Mill you get no real gaurantee.  At least with a rescue, the dog has been checked out and you would get a better chance of finding one that is healthy.  I don't want to ehell out money for all the health problems down the road. That will be far more expensive than paying for a quality, health tested dog in the first place.  Just ask anyone here with a sick pooch what their monthly costs are for special diet, meds, vet visit.  Then multiply that

bet 1941's picture
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I think educaton is the key.. groups like this is how I learned what to do and not do.. I can scrape together enough for a pup from a good breeder but I chose to rescue bedause I dont want a puppy and I think it is my time to go search..

Getting back to the subject groups like this help tell a lot of people ... most people just dont know.. I learned from poodle groups and experience.. my first 2 poodles were not bred well I loved them to pieces now I got Levi he is perfect but he was from a good breeder.   So now I am on the hunt for a rescue female dobe.. 

hugs

Bet

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Atrain, good for you for doiing your research!! But just to point out, good breeders don't charge what they charge because they want to make money, in fact, most don't turn a profit at all, most times LOSING money.  The reason why they charge the prices they do is that all the health testing, titling, temperament testing, vet visits, quality food, and other things involved in propperly raising a litter is very, very expensive.  When you cut out these expensive tests, and everything else involved, you can begin to understand why other breeders can charge so much less, and they still make a profit.  The good breeders don't look at dogs as a "business", they are looking to continue and improve upon the breed that they and we love.  You don't have to spend 3,000 on a doberman, many great breeders are going to be in the 1500-2000 range for pet quality dogs.  The show quality dogs are usually reserved for those that intend to show, try to title, etc.  But even the best breeder out there is not only producing show quality, there will be pet quality dogs in every litter.

I don't usually see people say if they can't afford the best to rescue, because there's plenty of people that can't afford 3,000 for a pup.  What they normall mean, is if you can't afford to purchase from a reputable breeder, it is better to rescue, than to support a byb.

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Rescue is not a bad thing - it does come with some unknowns but nothing that can't be handled. Usually a foster parent can tell you just about everything you would want to know about the dog you are interested in. Does the dog snore, have health issues, skin allergies, food allergies, incontinence, barking issues, crating issues, potty issues, how is the dog with kids, cats, other dogs, all those things and more can be told to you about the rescue dog you are looking at. So rescue can come with a secure feeling that you have a stable dog that is what it is as described by the rescue group. And the rescue group should if they are reputable require you to return the dog to them if for any reason you need to rehome your dog. Plus rescue groups have puppies frequently, I work in Rottweiler rescue and my group just adopted out a 12 week old puppy female she a long list of applicants but puppies can be had through rescue. Lots of females come into rescue pregnant and all those puppies have to find a home too. So give a bit of thought and see what you think......adoption fees are low and that would allow you to save the other money for high quality food and vet trips etc.  just tossing it out there......

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Realizing that this an old thread but certainly not an old topic I just wanted to contribute my 2 cents!

Unethical and uneducated breeding is not unlike the illegal sale of drugs, or yes, even prostitution!  Perhaps once  the buyers are gone from all facets, the BUSUNESSES will be put put out!  Strong arming and threatening doesn't appear to be positive action to date.  However, I do strongly believe in constructive education instead of the  demeaning beligerence that is  all to often seen on forums! The average person when spoken down to, regardless of topic takes the normal defensive action! Granted there are some people that can never be reached, but if you can get 1, think of the difference that will make! If perhap, you can reach one BYB, and although he may never stop breeding entirely, convince him to do health testing, even minimal is better than nothing, then you can say you have made a dent. You may even get him interested in another sport he can do with his dog, obedience, agility.  You just have to find the right buttons to push! And hopefully it will just keep helping.