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ogs217's picture
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I have had a very bad experience with Anita Clark of Sunnyside Dobermans. Do not be fooled by her website. She is not recognized by AKC and no one at the Doberman Club of America has ever heard of her. I signed a contract with her for a black male pup for $1600 and sent her a $200 deposit. As soon as she cashed it, she emailed me demanding a "second deposit" of $650 to get the puppy's ears done. This wasn't in the contract. According to it, I would have to pay the remainder when I came to take the pup, there was no mention of this second deposit, so of course I refused. Anita Clark wrote that she "forgot" to include it in the contract, but that she always does include this, so it still "counts." I again said no, because this was quickly smelling fishy, at which point she said that because I am such an untrusting person, she wants nothing to do with me (!!!) and so now is refusing to return my $200. I got the Better Business Bureau involved, but wanted to make sure she doesn't have a chance to scam more people.

Abigail's picture
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Joined: 2011-09-03

Well, thanks for the heads up.

talisin's picture
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Joined: 2011-02-25

You know that name sounds so familiar, I can't place why but I swear I know that name.....thanks for the heads up on that one, I will be sure to alert anyone in my area about this. Where is this woman located in NC???  I hope you get your $200 back, I do know from a situation I had with a porch addition that any money that you put towards a contract is legally binding UNLESS the contract is breached by either party and by adding in another fee not in the original contract that you have is breaching the contract on her part therefore she owes you the money, don't back down on that one......so sorry for the puppies though, unscrupulous breeders usually means the puppies are not being cared for properly and the puppies don't deserve that...........

ogs217's picture
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Joined: 2012-07-05

Yeah, I doubt I'll get my money back. She apparently spent it and doesn't actually have $200 to her name, so cannot return it. And in any case - that's how a scam works, right? If I got my money back it wouldn't be a scam, it would be a legitimate business, and that's not the case here.

If I don't get it back, I'll make sure she loses a lot more in business. Her name is Anita Clark, she is running a website called Sunnyside Dobermans and is located at [edit: AlphaAdmin] in Gastonia, SC. She takes a deposit and then asks for a second deposit to get the dog's ears cropped, which isn't in the contract. Then if you refuse, she simply keeps your deposit and claims you are the one breaking the contract. I'm running this past my lawyer friends to see if when I take her to court, I can claim my hourly rate plus the legal fees. If that's the case, I should be able to sue her for her "business," the dogs are a busienss asset.

 

Thanks, though.

talisin's picture
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Joined: 2011-02-25

GREAT!!!!  put her out of business if this is what she is doing. Are there any dogs actually with her or is this just a money scam??? you may be on the news here if this hits like it should. That reminds me - the local news in NC and SC usually have these reporters that do nothing but go out and interview people who are scamming people or attempting to - maybe you could contact the local TV station in Gastonia and get them to pay her a visit to see if there really are dogs on the property for sale, get some media exposure........

ogs217's picture
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Joined: 2012-07-05

That is a good idea! I hadn't thought of that. Thank you!

 

The fact is, I do not know if she has any dogs, I've never met her. For all I know, "Anita Clark" is a dude who runs a scammy website from his mom's basement. Lesson learned for me - and hopefully others - never trust people, even if they have good websites and look like little old ladies.


If she does have dogs, then she is pretty dumb. One bad review = many potential clients scared off. Each client = $1600. What kind of a dummy would lose thousands to gain $200?  Maybe the kind of dummy who's gonna make an appearance on a local TV expose, eh?

talisin's picture
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Joined: 2011-02-25

Keep us posted on this one.  Good luck...

Enzo7's picture
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Anita Clark is a very reputable breeder. In the last three years my wife and I purchased two healthy show quality red Dobermans from her. One male and one female. We understood that the price of the ears were included in the price of each dog when we made a deposit. Her reputation and experience  goes for at least thirty years. My two dogs are brother and sister. Their parents both hold several titles each in show and shutzen. As long as I've known her she's been a straight shooter and very dependable. She has the support of my and my wife's support. Any comments outside the box of this statement are frivolous and have no merit!!!!!

talisin's picture
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Joined: 2011-02-25

I guess everyone has a different experience glad yours was a positive one.......there are always two sides to everything.......The following is what threw red flags for me:

She is not recognized by AKC and no one at the Doberman Club of America has ever heard of her

As soon as she cashed it, she emailed me demanding a "second deposit" of $650 to get the puppy's ears done. This wasn't in the contract. According to it, I would have to pay the remainder when I came to take the pup, there was no mention of this second deposit, so of course I refused. Anita Clark wrote that she "forgot" to include it in the contract, but that she always does include this, so it still "counts."

 is refusing to return my $200

These are not reputable issues......did you check with AKC or the Doberman Club of America before you got your two?? have you ever had a need to ask for your money back and been refused?? the fact that you have two great dogs doesn't mean that SHE is great in her dealings with people who question her business practices.

Just throwing out some things to consider before disregarding everyone's remarks concerning this. I know I would be furious and be demanding my money back too. And anyone who wouldn't give it back I would see to it their business practices came to light.....and  would warn others to be forewarned.....

ogs217's picture
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Joined: 2012-07-05

Selling someone two nice dogs once doesn't mean the person is honest or legitimate. (Besides the fact that I think she wrote the above positive post herself, since its appearance coincided with her emails to me about how I better watch out, I'm digging myself a big hole, etc. Um, crazy much?) But even if she did sell some people some dogs and they had a good experience, I think what happened with me nullifies any claims of being a good breeder, a legitimate business, areputable person, etc. When you "forget" to include somethinhg in the contract and the other person doesn't agree with this add-on, a legitimate business would apologize about THEIR (stupid) mistake, and refund the money immediately with more apologies. They don't insist that the deposit is non-refundable. A legitimate business doesn't have TWO deposits totaling $850 for a $1600 dog, sigh unseen. A legitimate business has proper contracts. A legitimate business attempts to be honest. And now that I have been in touch with DPCA, I know for a fact that no decent breeder demands that a POTENTIAL buyer pay for a specific dog's ear cropping, or any ear cropping at all. I didn't chose the dog, why would I pay for a dog's ears? What if I had wanted to buy another dog after this one's ears were cropped? Why am I even discussing this? It wasn'tin the contract. All the emails said that I would come to take the 10 week dog, with cropped ears, when it was old enough. Anita Clark is a scammer, with no accreditation from any doberman association, who is desperate and who needs to hang on to tiny sums. Someone who needs to steal $200 cannot possibly have the means to raise and maintain healthy dogs. They are expensive nd people THIS broke cannot afford that, so I am sure the dogs are fed poorly, vaccinated randomly, and cropped by some butcher.

talisin's picture
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Joined: 2011-02-25

I feel sorry for the dogs, makes my heart break for their plight, I hope they get into loving homes and she stops this punishment to the female and the puppies.......

TDAC's picture
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Joined: 2012-07-14

Just to set the record straight the deposit on a $1600. pup is 50% this covers the cost of getting the ears cropped. I accepted a partial deposit of $200.00 and when it was almost time for the pup to have his ears cropped requested the rest of the deposit. Trying to be easy to work with I offered the option of paying the vet directly for doing the ears instead of giving me the money. Still getting an arguement she chose to end the contract.

I sent her the following e-mail as I always keep my dealings professional. Since sending this e-mail I have been threatend,slandered had the police at my house. I have told her if she feel she has a ligitimate case against me please take me to court.


 

On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 4:50 PM, anita clark
When I sell a puppy it is more then a one time transaction. It is a relationship that last the lifetime of the dog. I can see in this case that it is going to be impossible to have that kind of relationship and would be more the happy to cancel your contract. I will be returning your deposit as a good faith jesture as deposits are not refundable.
 
I hope you find a breeder and dog you can be happy with.
 
ogs217's picture
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Joined: 2012-07-05

Yeah, that's great. Except no "second deposit" is in the contract and unless I gave her this ridiculous, un-contracted amount of additional $650, she wouldn't give me a dog. So, rather than throw good money after bad, I asked for my deposit back. She spent it and couldn't scrounge up a measly $200 until she could sell her dog to someone else. I didn't see why that should be my problem - I am not a lending institution. So, since I wasn't getting a refund, after a few weeks I got tired of waiting and called the police, the better business bureau, and decided to let potential buyers know of this scam. A legitimate business would refund the money immediately. a) because the mistake is theirs and thecontract was written by them and b) because it's the right thing to do and c) $200 is really not worth starting a big feud over. That's not what Anita Clark did. She is hanging on to my money because she is so desperate as to need it. And in my opinion, someone desperately broke cannot raise and maintain and provide for many, many purebred dogs and puppies (and apparently horses). So even if she has dogs, they are in bad condition and supporting this type of breeder by buying from them is a disservice to animals. (Also, someone who is barely literate and writes with 2nd grade spelling errors has to raise some red flags. What kind of a reputable and knowledgeable person, in any field, doesn't know the difference between "then" and "than?") Sunnyside Dobermans is a scam and Anita Clark is a thief.

ogs217's picture
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Joined: 2012-07-05

Re courts - don't worry, that's coming up. There's a lengthy statue of limitations on petty graft. First I am going to enjoy myself by all the free means available to me, then I'll spend the money on court fees. I'm aware that when I win the case you'll be unable to pay up, and selling your assets will take a while. But I have experience with court ordered seizures and US marshalls, so you have that to look forward to!
Enjoy my $200, hope it's worth it!

AlphaAdmin's picture
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So, let me summarize this dispute.

ogs, you signed a contract for a $1600 puppy, with ears cropped, with a $200 deposit.

TDAC, you forgot to include your usual second deposit of $650 in the initial contract, but asked ogs for this amount anyway, explaining that it's your usual practice. (Which is reasonable. Ear cropping is a big job, expensive, and becoming non-standard.)

ogs, you decided that TDAC must be trying to scam you, so you became upset and refused to pay.

TDAC, you offered to return the $200 deposit. (Did you specify how?)

ogs, after a 'few' days, not having received your deposit, you lost your mind and have since been doing anything in your power to ruin TDAC's credibility.

Can we call this a rational distillation of that above?

Note: This situation sound more like a misunderstanding than a 'scam,' so I'm going to adjust the title to that effect, mainly because this topic is number three on Google for 'Sunny Side Dobermans,' and this topic is bordering on blackhat SEO.

ogs217's picture
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No, I didn't "lose my mind." I work for my money and I don't like people stealing from me. We had an agreement that I would pay $1400 upon receipt of a 10 week old puppy with cropped ears, following a $200 deposit. Most breeders take care of that and get their payment a few weeks later, unless they specify that they need the money upfront, in cases where the buyer already chose a specific puppy, which I hadn't done. Why would I give a total of $850 to a random stranger OUTSIDE of a contract? Why would I pay a vet bill for a specific dog when I haven't chosen any dog yet? Since the seller made a mistake and sent a contract that apparently didn't suit her - genious -  I asked for a refund. I waited 2 weeks without any contact, then asked again. She decided not to answer. I contacted her again a couple of days after that, annoyed. She then said that she'll return my money when she gets some money. Since I am not a lending institution, I didn't see how her poor money management was my issue, and told her that if I don't have my money within a week, I will conisder it a theft and start dealing with it accordingly. I never got my money, just some nonsense about how I am supposed to honor a part of a contract that wasn't actually in the contract because she meant for it to be there. Um, no. That is not how a legitimate business operates and that is not what I signed up for when I signed a contract. If other people find this to be standard and acceptable practice - great. Look up Sunnyside Dobermans and send her a $200 deposit and then $650 more and enjoy your "lifetime relationship" as she put it. I found this to be ridiculous and want to warn others. I still do not have MY money - and this is what it's about. I don't want her money, her dog, anything at all from her. I want what I earned, what came out of my pocket, back. A legitimate business would refund that asap, with apologies. Or they would acknowledge their mistake, and go with the contract - crop the dog's ears and have me come get him with $1400in August. A legitimate business has $200 for refunds, and it would also have $650 to take care of its assets (the dogs.) A business that doesn't have a couple of hundred bucks is in really bad shape, failing and so people should know that when they chose a dog from such a home. As for me, I have no intention of just allowing this. Again, if some people would just walk away, great for them. But I see no reason to allow this to go unpunished. If Anita Clark chose to take my money, spend it, and refuse to honor a contract SHE wrote, I'm going to make sure I get my money's worth and then some. If there were any concerns for her reputation, she had weeks to return my money, and several adequate warnings.

TDAC's picture
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In your answer above you say you had not picked your pup and that is why you refused to give any more money or pay the vet for the ear crop. You knew there was only one male pup was it your intention to refuse delivery of this pup after his ears were cropped. You signed the contract that clearly stated in bold type that deposits,ear cropping and registration fees were not refundable. Maybe you are the one that was and is doing the scam. 

It sounds to me like the OP has a legitimate beef.  If the breeder decided to change the contract agreement after it was already signed, then she is in breach of contract and it would be null and void - she should refund the $200 and go on her way.  Now, anyone googling her is going to find that someone had an issue with her, and I for one say "Yeah"!!  It is hard for me to believe that she can't cough up $200 and just avoid the mess that she caused by not being clear right from the beginning.

I'm so freaking glad that I don't take deposits!!  If you don't have the money to take care of the puppies till the day they are sold, then you should not IMHO be breeding!!  Breeding a Doberman litter and doing it right is a very expensive undertaking - not including the very expensive pre-breeding health testing and showing the bitch, my last litter of 8 cost me in excess of $6000 from the day of breeding to puppies going home - I make sure that I have enough money in my dog account to cover the cost before I even do a breeding.  So shame on this breeder for expecting her puppy buyers to foot 1/2 the cost before even getting their puppy - if she can't refund $200, how would she refund $800 if the puppy became unavailable..... at that point it would IMHO become criminal.

I don't in theory have a problem with taking deposits, but IMHO they are not worth the hassle they can create.  I never want someone to take a puppy just because they aren't willing to lose a deposit - I'd rather find a better home that really wants THAT puppy!  JMHO

jerial13's picture
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Alpha,

Thank you for attempting to clarify this situation for all of us.  I was also confused I thought they had received their money back based on TDAC's post, but if they have not received their money back I do not blame ogs217 for assuming a fraudulant scamming activity had transpired.

Do you have any further wisdom?

Fitzmar,

I know that here in Missouri any breach of contract or defrauding over $150.00 is a felony and prosecuted as such.  Since you are closer to NC than I am, do you know if this would be a misdemeanor charge of breach or a felony charge of breach?

I was just curious.

TDAC,

Give ogs217 their money back.  You are not upholding your contract you have already admitted you offered money back, and no they should not have to wait until it is convenient for you.  The same follows suit for your contract alteration.  Contracts are written for one reason and that is to keep honest people honest.  If you needed $850.00 for a deposit it should have been in your contract, but since you did not they are entitled to their deposit back for your attempt to breach contract.  You forfeited your opportunity to keep the deposit when you became in breach of your own contract.  You have now admitted to all of the people on this forum that you were not following your contract. 

You have no legal leg to stand on, the only thing to be determined at this point is by your local judiciary as to whether this is a midemeanor or a felony breach of contract issue.

Jeri & Shelbi

AlphaAdmin's picture
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I'd have to read the contract to know how many legs TDAC has to stand on, but understand, attempting to renegotiate a contract is not the same thing as breaching a contract, nor is breaching a contract the same thing as fraud. Also, breeders usually word their contracts in a flexible way, because they are dealing with items for which there are no guarantees. It would be interesting to see the original contract.

Breach of contract is not a criminal offense. It's entirely a civil matter. It happens all the time too, btw. Businesses write a contract, things change, they renegotiate it. One party might file a law suit during the process, maybe for more leverage during the negotiation, maybe to mitigate their functional losses with cash settlements. 

Raising doberman puppies is expensive for anyone, so I don't see anything wrong with having to wait until puppies are sold to receive a refund on a deposit. That sounds reasonable to me. I've seen actual cases of fraud in the animal world, and it looks nothing like this. This situation looks like a misunderstanding, where measures were taken out of proportion, when a simple and reasonable solution could have, should have, been reached with just a little patience and forethought.

Most breeders have a standard contract. Is this not the case for you TDAC?

I'm not a lawyer (thank God), but even I know that trying to change what you asked for in a signed contract isn't ethical. If the breeder wants to renegotiate the contract, then the other party would be within their legal rights to say "no" and the contract should then be null and void. Anyone who can't come up with $200 for a refund on a deposit has IMHO no business breeding dogs!  I really can't see where anyone would not agree with this pretty basic theory.

I'd be interested in knowing if the breeder has a money back health guarantee in their contract? Cuz for sure if they can't refund $200, they wouldn't be able to refund the purchase price if something covered by the health guarantee happened.  This is just one of the reasons why I contend that health guarantees are normally not worth the paper they are written on. JMHO.

I'm just glad that I don't take deposits and nothing is signed till the day the puppy is picked up and paid for - I email a copy of the contract ahead of time so that people have a chance to look it over and discuss it before coming to get their puppy.  I know plenty of reputable breeders that do the same thing I do.

For the OP, I wish them luck in finding a puppy from a truly reputable breeder. BTW - I don't know of any cropper that charges $650 for a crop when they are doing a whole litter for a breeder..... I'm kinda questioning that charge.

 

ogs217's picture
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I wish I could upload this contract on here, unfortunately I cannot. What it states is the price of the dog, plus a small fee for a microchip and a small fee for AKC registration and a small fee for CARS, minus the $200 deposit, leaving a balance to be paid upon receipt of the puppy. I agree that people can renegotiate a contract. But "renegotiate" is not "hijack one person's money and demand more." Renegotiation is only oif both parties agree. And no buyer would agree to hand over more than 50% of the purchase price as a deposit.

And for the record - I haven't gotten my money back. Unfortunately the felony threshhold in federal court is $500, so this is not a criminal but a civiliam matter. Which means that I will have to pay court fees and marshall fees. The idea is that when I win, I will be awarded a judgment for all the expenses incurred. But since I'm dealing with a person who doesn't have $200, I don't see how I can realistically get $700 or $800 back for this ordeal. I did find a reputable breeder through the DPCA, in fact, a lady who chaired it for 6 years. And she has never heard of Anita Clark although she too lives in NC. So take that as you will.


I unfortunately lost $200 but I'm pretty sure no one else will. People do research when buying a $1600 purebred dog, and they will make an educated decision about buying from her.

AlphaAdmin's picture
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Hey Fitzmar, lawyers aren't all that bad.   Regardless, it's not a matter of ethics or what should be when it comes to contracts. Trying to renegotiate a contract doesn't automatically void the contract. From what I have gathered so far, if ogs does drag this into small claims court, the judge is going to look at the original signed contract and dismiss the thing, even if there is nothing specific about the deposit being non-refundable.

ogs, as I said before, trying to renegotiate a contract is not fraud, so the amount doesn't matter. This is a civil small-claims matter, 100%. The fact that TDAC tried to renegotiate the original contract does not void the original contract. It still holds. So you can either give up the $200 and use another breeder, arrange to pick up the puppy and pay the balance as the original contract specifies, or work something out with TDAC.

Also, the best breeders I've known don't even plan a litter until they have seven or so committed puppy parents. It might be a year or two before you actually pick up your dog, but that's how it works when your breeder is breeding to improve the breed and not to fill orders. One way to validate a commitment is with a deposit. Some people even send deposits to multiple breeders, sort of buying their place in two queues. 

As far as the price for ear cropping goes, it's believable. I haven't been though the ear cropping process in years, but even then it was growing past $400 for an individual dog. We never cropped a whole litter because many people prefer the natural ear, and many others prefer to take responsibility for the process themselves. The process is also a real pain. So $400 for the vet and $250 for the breeder's trouble is not a bad deal, in my opinion, depending on how long they keep the puppy after the procedure.

ogs217's picture
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I can't imagine getting a dog from this woman. She is obviously never going to give me back my money. I'm going to give it a few weeks, use all the free ways to make her wish she'd never taken it, and then see how I feel. If I feel vindictive enough, I will dust off that law education of mine and make my debut in the small claims court of North Carolina.


I do agree with everyone who's pointed out that breeding dogs is very expensive and people shouldn't do it if they don't have several thousand dollars allocated to the endeavor - for vets, food, care, emergencies, refunds, ears, whatever. Anyone who grabs and spends the laughable sum of $200 and cannot replace it is ridiculously unsuited to breeding.

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What if TDAC is actually a great breeder, working to care for the Doberman breed, and she made an honest mistake in not fully explaining her policy? What if she wasn't actually trying to screw you out of $200? I don't see why you can't work something out.

Would you agree to reverse what damage you've done (that which you can) if TDAC were to agree to refund the $200 after the first puppy is sold? Or are you too immersed in this animosity of yours to see reason?

talisin's picture
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I would just like to point out that anyone who is a reputable breeder and sends out contracts regularly shouldn't have a mistake with something as simple as paperwork on a contract, the contracts should be standard and ready to go and not typed out separately in order to avoid mistakes happening, it isn't professional to not have something as simple as the paperwork in order. And it's my understanding that a re-negotiation of a contract requires another document stating that an error was made and a new contract is included and that if the new contract is not suitable the original contract is then null and void and all monies returned. And even considering a re-negotiation has to be agreed upon by both parties.That was how it worked here in NC a few years back.......

TDAC's picture
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Thank you AlphaAdmin for trying to straighten this out. Now you see what I have been dealing with. Here are some facts. My contract is standard yet flexible. The oriiginal part of the transaction was a phone conversation. Where everything was discussed in detail on a different pup one that already had it's ears cropped. I offered to send a blank copy of my contract so she could see how it was written and the guarantees. On it was the price of the pup we had discussed. No where does it say how much the deposit is. It does in bold type clearly state that deposits, ear cropping and registration are non refundable. The only other mention of payment that it makes is that in order for you to pick your pup up it must be paid for in full.

After sending the contract for their review I received another call at which time a black male pup had just been born. Interest turned to this pup as his ears could be cropped shorter and they could get him younger. I was asked how much of a deposit to buy this pup. I said $200 at this time since he was only a few days old and any thing could happen. At this time I explained that the rest of the deposit would be due before he got his ears cropped as this is paid to the vet. I was asked if I could change the contract to say that if something happened to this pup I would transfer the deposit to another pup, the contract was edited.

After the change was approved I asked her to send me her info so I could properly fill in the contract with her info and the payment info plus the proper puppy info remember the contract was blank. Instead she takes it upon herself to hand write her info in sign it and send it to me. 

From the very beginning I have kept this professional and will continue to do so. 

ogs217's picture
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The above are outright lies. It isn't possible to upload the contract here, or the trail of emails. So she can say anything she wants, but the fact is that these are complete fabrications. We have discussed everything by phone and over 30 emails. It is very clear cut. I deal with a lot of contracts and clarified everything by email, many times over. I have sent in the contract to the Better Business Bureau for arbitration, and it's there in black and white. There is a deposit of $200 and then the remainder due at pick up.

I have been asking for my money back for weeks, the first three of which I did nothing at all, just ask twice by email. When it became clear that I wasn't getting my money back, I sent a detailed warning. She has been "keeping it professional" by keeping my money. I don't have any recourse except court, which is a waste of my time and more money, or simply taking the loss and making this thief and liar pay in other ways.

I would have been very happy to get my money back and move on, I offered her that over and over. I found another breeder and got a dog, so it's not like I need or want to deal with this for any reason. I'm done, I got the puppy I wanted. But she clearly needs $200 really badly. Gotta wonder what she does with her sick puppies, since she doesn't have $200 to her name. Drown them? Chuck them outside? She clearly can't afford a vet.

Really, my work is done here in the court of public opinion. Anyone looking for a dog will read this and other posts online and enough doubt should be created for that person to go with another breeder, someone who isn't all over the internet as a liar and contract breaker. There are plenty of good breeders around. No one should have to deal with this when all they want is to have a happy experience getting a pet. And I can't imagine anyone would want to.

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If 50% is the "standard deposit" amount then why is this not also typed in bold letters on the contract.  Pre-receipt of the contract was not mentioned until Fitzmar said that is what she does.

"I explained that the rest of the deposit would be due before he got his ears cropped as this is paid to the vet"

What is the rest of the deposit $?.??, again if 50% is the "standard deposit" this should have been in the contract.

Jeri

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Also, one more thing.  Since the amount of money we are talking about is just for cropping the ears I can than conclude that a pup with natural ears sells for $950.00, of which you expect a $475.00 deposit.

Wow, I do not know about the rest of you but that sounds like a great deal.

Jeri

ogs217's picture
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Jeri - right on.

AlphaAdmin's picture
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What's obvious is that this dispute was due to a misunderstanding. 10's of emails... Phone calls... Appended contracts... etc...

Is there an actual signed contract that was once mutually agreed upon?

ogs, if you deal with contracts, you must have realized you were making a deal in an informal environment. Puppy deposits are a form of good will--a way to communicate to a breeder that you are serious about a puppy. It's generally, and enthusiastically, understood that the money is spend on the puppy. This effort of yours to destroy TDAC's credibility seems unwarranted.

ogs217's picture
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Huh?

If I deal with contracts I must have realized that I am making a deal in an informal environment and that my deposit is a form of good will? Huh? No.

It isn't necessary to deal with contracts to know, as I do, what they are and what they are used for, which is the exact opposite of "informal" and "flexible." I paid a deposit because I felt confident in the agreement, I liked the terms, and I was happy to abide by them. This confidence came from having a CONTRACT which specified what I would get, what she would get, how, when and all the needed details.

I would never hand over $200 for a deposit that would be "enthusiastically understood" to be wishy washy, with no obligations - let's just see what happens. I paid a deposit following the receipt and signing of a CONTRACT. This was supplemented by lots of emails where I asked specific questions to clarify this contract. And when I was completely satisfied with the contract, then it made sense to me to agree to it and to abide by it. So I paid a deposit. And I was planning on paying this woman $1400 more in August.


I don't know anything about "flexible and informal" contracts, I think those are called "idle chit chat." But what I have is a solid and very clear contract. And what this thief has is my money. If I had my money, I wouldn't have any reason to be upset, would I?

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As for ruined reputations - she wanted the $200, she got it. I warned her and sent her notifications of consequences for breaching the contract and refusing to return my money. She isn't even debating that point - yes, she breached the contract - she "forgot to put stuff in there", yes, she promised me a refund. Her point is that she is broke, she spent my money and can't refund my deposit until she gets some cash, sometime.
What kind of a business is that? One that's desperate and doesn't care at all about its name. Anita Clark cares more about hanging on to some stranger's $200 than her reputation, so I don't see why you are so concerned with defending her, AlphaAdmin. If she cared, she'd have given me back my money. It really is just that simple!

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Anita is a very reputable breeder and has been for over 30 years.  In those 30 years, you are the first person to post a complaint.  She has breed dogs for countless families, special needs customers and K9 units.  I find it hard to believe that someone who has breed for 30 years, has a solid reputation and strong customer base would try to swindle $200 from you. 

My husband and I have purchased two Dobermans from her.  Anytime that we have needed or wanted her advice she has been there day or night.  She is a breeder who truly cares about the well being the animals.  For her, breeding is not just how she makes a living, it’s her life.  We can’t leave the house without getting compliments on our dogs. Strangers come up to us to interact with them and admire their beauty.  Although she mostly sells her puppies for pets they are definitely a show quality. 

What kind of sick person would wish that someone loses their business over a $200 misunderstanding?  Have you ever heard that you reap what you sow?  How dare you post her name and address for the world to see?!?!?!?  In this crazy world where you can be harassed or killed over stealing a parking space and you are willing to post someone’s personal information over $200.  When you posted that information you had no clue who would read it or what their reaction would be.  I would ask that you think outside the small world you live in and realize that we are in the digital age and you are reacting recklessly.  If you truly had “lawyer friends” I doubt you would be continuing to post information online instead of serving her with papers.  I would venture to say you don’t have “lawyer friends” or your “lawyer friends” already told you that you don’t have a case and this is your only means of venting.  To your point exactly “What kind of a dummy would lose thousands to gain $200?”. “and c) $200 is really not worth starting a big feud over. “  Seems like even you know this doesn’t make sense. 

Thank goodness there are people like Enzo7 and AlphaAdmin who are willing to stand up for what is right.  America needs more citizens like this!  Ogs217 in post #9 you state that Enzo7’s statement must be ghostwriting on the breeder’s part.  I’m sorry, but I fail to see how your claim of “(Besides the fact that I think she wrote the above positive post herself, since its appearance coincided with her emails to me about how I better watch out, I'm digging myself a big hole, etc. Um, crazy much?)” is validated in Enzo7’s post.   You continue to state that you don’t even think there are dogs involved.  Well who is the crazy person now?  You just put $200 down on thin air!  You know where she lives, you have her contact info and you never asked to see a picture or took a visit to her property to validate your precious little $200 deposit?  Clearing that up, seems to be the easiest fix, get in your car and go see the pup.  Then you might not have so much free time to write childish blogs with the intention of ruining someone’s life.  Perhaps then you could be planning on the home you are preparing to provide your pup.  However, from the sound of you and your immature comments, the Doberman will probably be more intellectual than you.  In response to “I didn't chose the dog, why would I pay for a dog's ears? What if I had wanted to buy another dog after this one's ears were cropped? Why am I even discussing this?”  You put a deposit down a specific puppy.  Are you completely oblivious the puppy buying process?  It’s not like she has 6 puppies sitting around waiting to King Ogs217 to decide which one he wants in 8-12 weeks.  If you could just come pick up a pup in 12 weeks in would be mayhem for her to keep up with each buyer’s puppy and their specific needs.  How could she teach the dog its name, start associating the dog with your scent via a worn clothing item or training them based of your lifestyle?  By the way, these are all amenities that Anita provides. 

I know that you are not addressing grammar issues; do you even proofread your posts?  Your issues are too many to address.   

Here is an offer you can’t resist.  Post YOUR home address and phone #, so your neighbors can be forewarned that an idiot lives nearby and I will personally refund you your money.   I feel it is my personal duty to warn your community of its reckless citizens!   

ogs217:

To your claim that she is not recognized by the AKC, please explain this! http://www.akc.org/classified/search/index.cfm.

 

To talisinjust because someone on the internet whom you have NEVER heard of says something about someone or their business does not make it true.  For you to desire to “alert” anyone in your area about this is outside the scope of the activity level/involvement you need to have on this issue.   It is idiotic of you to assume that because of an unfounded and uncorrelated rumor the puppies are being mistreated.  You know what, give me your address so I have the news show up at your home and do a special report on “The Reckless Blogging of Americans” as an evening pastime.   I mean really, you don’t have anything better to do until 1am?

Ex. Mon, 2012-07-09 01:01

#6

Keep us posted on this one.  Good luck...)

Ex. Sat, 2012-07-14 01:29

#8

I guess everyone has a different experience glad yours was a positive one.......there are always two sides to everything.......

To FitzmarIMHO how you do business is irrelevant.  Not even Fortune 50 companies go in the hole that much of a percentage to support a product.  Perhaps you should take a business course or two.  It would be a better use of your $6000. 

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"After the change was approved I asked her to send me her info so I could properly fill in the contract with her info and the payment info plus the proper puppy info remember the contract was blank. Instead she takes it upon herself to hand write her info in sign it and send it to me."

Ok I have a question about the above statement to the other breeders here with clear contracts - is the above standard procedure???

I know from having worked with attorneys for years that a contract that a person receives is never sent back empty with their personal information on a separate sheet of paper to be entered by someone later. Why - because that still allows for information to be added, deleted, changed and then entered things that the person might not be willing to agree to, for instance - saying that after signing the contract the breeder would then enter the payment information that is like giving a blank check to the cashier and agreeing to $10 but when you get your check back it's for $100, if no information or amounts are filled in on the contract at time of signing by buyer then what is the buyer agreeing to??? anything that is to be later filled in!! The breeder is upset that the buyer filled in the contract, I find that strange since the buyer would want to make sure that what they signed is what they wanted. Again we were never allowed to accept paperwork at the attorney's office if there were any lines left blank even if the signature was there at the bottom if there were any lines blank we had to redo everything. There should never be any open/blank lines to be filled in later out of the presence of the buyer. That's my thinking but what is standard breeder procedure??? I know AKC papers can be done that way or used to - but not legally binding contracts. So I am confused about the validity of this......unless the breeder was going to fill in the personal info and then send it back for signature and approval???

And I am extremely curious as to why the $200 has not been refunded, it seems like a small price to pay to keep one's reputation. Keeping things professional would be refunding the money and calling it lesson learned. This withholding of the deposit money doesn't make any sense to me since someone will also be paying that $200 for that same puppy or more, so this is free money at this time, why not give it back??? What is the point????

If the breeder were so reputable, she would have refunded that $200 when she tried to change the amount and the buyer balked. Risking the IMHO rightous wrath of an unhappy customer is sure not worth the damage that has already been done to her "business".  That she is now going back on her agreement to pay the $200 just speaks volumes to me.

I would never ever advise someone to put down ANY deposit on a puppy before they were born and I would never advise someone to pay a 50% deposit period. 

I also would never expect someone to pay a deposit to get on my waiting list and then wait for a year or more with no guarantee that there would be any puppies..... I think that is absurd!!  And I strongly disagree with the Alpha Admin about this. 

For the other question, contracts to me are something that are signed the day the puppy is picked up. We can negotiate items beforehand or even right at that time.  If an agreement could not be made, they or I are free to walk away and there is no money to argue about. That has never happened, but I acknowledge that it is not beyond the possible. I put the well being of the puppy first - if someone balks at the price or anything else, they are free to walk away.... I am also free to say "No" to someone if at any time I feel that they are not the right home for my puppy.  Until the day that the contract is signed, money changes hands, and they wave goodbye with the puppy in their arms - it is not a done deal.   

My advice to the breeder is to refund the $200 and call it a day. My advice to the OP is that they hopefully found a breeder that they can have a lasting relationship with and a puppy that they love - They have made their point, and I agree with them.  Call it a lesson learned, and consider yourself lucky to have gotten off cheap.

 

And to Kaizer my response to this comment: "To FitzmarIMHO how you do business is irrelevant.  Not even Fortune 50 companies go in the hole that much of a percentage to support a product.  Perhaps you should take a business course or two.  It would be a better use of your $6000. "

I don't produce Dobermans as a business or a "product" - it is my hobby and I pour my heart and soul into every litter - they deserve the very best. I do as much as I can to produce the best dog that I can - and if I want to spend $6000 doing every health test, going to the best cropper, finding the best stud dog, then I will.  I normally lose money breeding a litter if I include all the costs..... but I'm ok with that.  My puppies cost less than Dobermans from commercial kennels for a good reason - profit is not my goal.  BTW - I do have a business degree and an education degree...... and IMHO the education degree is much more useful when it comes to my hobby.

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Being on the akc website in the "classifieds" section doesn't make one AKC accredited. I can run an ad in a medical journal; that doesn't make me a doctor.

Please. That's as intelligent an argument as the one Anita Clark had for the contract - "I meant to put it in, but I forgot, but it still counts. Cause I forgot."

Do people really not know what a contract is and what it's for? No, a contract is not "vague" and "open to interpretation." No, a contract is not sent to people with blanks to be filled out later. No, a contract signed by both parties is not some "arbitrary" paper open to add-ons by one of the parties. A contract is a specific agreement that spells out what each party will do, and it exists specifically to avoid these types of situations. So that when one person doesn't honor the contract, a judge or arbitor can very easily see who is right.

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PS - loving kaiser's post - "the doberman is more intellectual than you" and how "America needs more upstanding citizens" like herself and how maybe - oh no! - I don't even have lawyer friends. Gasp! That really hurts, that people might think I don't have any lawyer friends. I'm devastated by that comment. I'm going to go cry.

Hilarity.

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Pet Profiles

talisin, I think what TDAC is saying is that she sent a copy of her regular contract to ogs for her general review after discussing an already-cropped puppy. But later, they had discussed another puppy, and TDAC wanted ogs's contact information to formally type into a new contract along with the adjustment regarding the new un-cropped puppy. Instead, ogs mailed her the original, general for review purposes, copy with her own [ogs'] hand-written additions.

In hindsight I agree... TDAC would have saved herself a lot of trouble by sending the $200 back... I bet she wishes she had sent it back along with a basket of blueberry muffines, or something similar. From what I understand though, TDAC was simultaneously hit by an unrelated problem during that time, and so did not prioritize ogs' demands. That's not an excuse of course.

It's so difficult in this type of business. A breeder could do everything perfectly, and one day accidentally hurt someone's feelings, and suddenly be ruined. It's so easy to discredit someone arbitrarily. I've seen it happen with other things--books, computer components. Someone makes the purchase, becomes confused, and and lashes out. I've seen great books lose sales because a customer leaves a one-star review on Amazon because their delivery went wrong. I've seen great quality computer components receive bad reviews on newegg.com because people didn't know how to set them up properly.

ogs, it's an informal environment because you're agreements are contained in non-notorized unoficial documents, emails, and phone conversations. There's no uniform federal or state 'breeder agreement' code. There aren't consumer protection laws focused on breeders as there are with most industries, which require specific steps and uniform contracts. That's why I call it 'informal'. If you go to court some poor judge is going to have to thumb though all these emails and 'contracts,' listen to all your stories, filtering out 90% of it for his (or her) own sanity, and then come to some mild conclusion. I'll bet $200 he'll (or she'll) just call it even. You reserved a puppy. You didn't pick it up. Deposit lost. Simple Simple. That's my bet. Any takers?

Also, generally speaking, in the fancier world, whenever we're talking about the very few precious good breeders, deposits are not a thing that obliges the breeder to you. They aren't in the customer service filed, nor should they be. They should be focused on their dog's health--and that's it. If you can find a good breeder, God bless you, it's a privilege to render a deposit. Think kindly on how they're spending it on things to spoil and nurture their precious puppies.

If, however, TDAC is not a good breeder, well then, stop embarrassing yourself by complaining to Doberman lovers about how you've been sending hundreds of dollars to bad breeders. 

Fitzmar, I see your point clearly. You're approach is a good one as far as the problems above are concerned. This is just my experience. The best breeders I've known don't like to start a litter untill they have many good homes at the ready, which takes a year or so to gather, and these good homes are usually eager to lend a hand financialy. It's less of a purchase and more of a participation in a breeding program. When we were breeding, even with our list of paid-in-advance homes, we still usually ended up with a couple goofballs handing around the house well past 12 weeks, until we found them the right home.

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Kaizer:

To talisinjust because someone on the internet whom you have NEVER heard of says something about someone or their business does not make it true. For you to desire to “alert” anyone in your area about this is outside the scope of the activity level/involvement you need to have on this issue. It is idiotic of you to assume that because of an unfounded and uncorrelated rumor the puppies are being mistreated. You know what, give me your address so I have the news show up at your home and do a special report on “The Reckless Blogging of Americans” as an evening pastime. I mean really, you don’t have anything better to do until 1am?

Do not take me to task!! Alerting anyone I know is something I can do if there is a POSSIBILITY of a problem with this breeder - will I be dropping flyers in people's mailboxes based on someone's post here that I do not know - NO NO NO, will I take out a front page ad in the paper NO, However, should I let someone I know purchase a dog from someone who has had such a complaint?? I think not, as a friend it is my responsibility to at least inform them to be aware of the "fine print" and to watch everything concerning their agreement with this person. Had the tables been turned - I would want to alert any friend of mine that was breeding dobermans to watch out for an irate buyer; And who are you to tell me what is "outside the scope of my activity level/involvement??? I have experience in areas you have no idea of. And under the circumstances when there is a complaint that might involve animal neglect, abuse or the POSSIBILITY of such I will not stand silent!!! If you want to go to the rumor stage of things then we can say that everything you say is rumor, does anyone here have any proof that what you are saying is true?? Wow why you chose to unload on me is beyond me, it took some time to pick on me especially since you bothered to even check what TIME I posted??? what does it matter to you when I post??? That's absurd, my life is of no concern to you, but since you think it is, have you ever thought that because of my Rottie's issues I might be up sitting with him to make sure he doesn't need an emergency clinic visit, maybe my husband works second shift, since I am an amputee maybe I am just up dealing with pain all night, wake up - not everyone has bankers hours, and why are you judging intelligence levels according to time of post?? Good lord.

I actually think it's great that you got your dogs from this breeder and you are VERY happy, so happy that you feel you have to call me idiotic and blast me for when I post and - for even posting, but just because you have had a GREAT experience does not mean that you KNOW for a fact what another person's experience IS or WAS. YOUR experience is NOT the other person's experience. If you check any feedback on any store's reviews section you will see that some people have wonderful experiences while others have horrid ones, does that mean that the store is terrible, no; but it doesn't mean that one should speak up and another one not - NO it means each person needs to speak up and let the next person beware with the help of both sides. And I didn't post anyone's address or information and never would so leave me alone on that one, and - don't indicate a threat to do that to me when I have not done that to anyone.

Admin - Thank you for clarifying that for me. I appreciate the time that it took to address my concerns.

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I'd have taken the refund and have been happy. No need for muffins. But I did and still do want MY money back. Seems pretty simple - nothing too hard to grasp. I would have been happy and friendly and never left a single post or anything if I got my very own money back and nothing else. But since that wasn't happening, I'm pretty annoyed. I don't see why I should be out of $200 because someone is stupid, incompetent, illiterate, irrespnsible, broke, dishonest, forgetful, or whatever else. She can be all those things with her own money. I just want what's mine.

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Pet Profiles

Hey everybody Anita Clark invited some of her friends to join our forum.  We are so happy to have Enzo7 and Kaizer as I am sure they are here for the betterment of the breed as well.  They certianly are not just here by the request of Anita Clark to defend her.

I have not seen OGS post her address, but as we are a bunch of internet idiots I was able to find her address on whitepages.com it was really hard I had to type her phone number name and city and state from her website and bingo out popped her address.  I was able to find her address but am still unable to locate all of this championship AKC winning that she is claiming, nor am I able to locate any of the OFA certification that she is claiming that is done on all her pups, and I cant find even one, isn't it funny how that works out.

No one is saying that Anita Clark is not a breeder, but before she is considered reputable please show us the proof.  I do accounting for a living(21 years), I can do your taxes, I can budget your business or expenses, but if you asked me for my CPA or my degree I would have to tell you I do not have one.  Then you say but you said you were an accountant I did not say I was an accountant I said that I do accounting.  There is a big difference between being a breeder which we can all be and being a reputable breeder.  I am unable to offer the time and attention that it takes to be a reputable breeder so guess what I do not breed dogs.

This is craziness and could all be avoided if Anita Clark could just simply back up what she is saying with proof of her AKC championship wins, or show us the contract that hsows that she is in the right.  That is all she has to do, but she can not do that and she is trying to lie to people that know better and we do not believe her.

Kaizer - you need to leave talisin alone as she is one of the most open-minded and positive people on this forum she always tries to help everybody and she does not deserve to be addressed in the manner in which you addressed her.  Should you have any other issues please feel free to address me I will be glad chat.

AlphaAdmin - this thread has been going on for two weeks and yet OGS still has not received the money that should be returned.  Apparently TDAC is not that concerned about her "reputation" or she would have definately already returned the deposit money.

Jeri

TDAC's picture
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Sunnyside MasterPlan, BOS 9/7/08 for the pts Rio Pecos KC, NM

Sunnyside Mystik Rose, BOB 9/13-14/08 Coronado KC, NM

Sunnyside Back N' Black, BBE Working Group 2, 10/11/2008,7 mo old over adults, Valencia Valley, NM

Tucson Kennel Club 11/14/2008 supported entry BBE class 1st place 

1 Sunnyside Back N' Black  A Clark             2 R-Solo's Boondock'N Babe  J Adkins/S Holmes/L Sauberan/C Rivera              

3Foxfire's Out Of The Blue  M Pacheco/K Torre/M Santana

 

  Sunnyside Not By Chance , BBE 10 months old over 2yr old pointed dog. Arrowhead KC 4/9/12

 

All AKC shows all owner handled not the only dogs I showed. Just my dogs.

jerial13's picture
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Pet Profiles

What about OFA and how about that broker question?  Can we just simply get an answer do you sell through a broker or not???????  Do I need to copy the other complaint about a $3500.00 puppy with a $495.00 cancellation fee that came from your breeding establishment, oh and the best part is that the puppy had roundworm and had to be put on Panacure right away????  HHHHMMMMM sounds like great quality breeding and care to me.

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I don't know where you are getting your info from but no pup of mine sold for $3500.00, nor was there any cancellation fee of $495.00 and I am not a breeding establishment. Oh what a surprise a 10 week old pup had a round worm.  Lets see he is in such horrible condition his ears stand and he weighs 25 lbs. Really looks like he's at deaths door. BTY on his way to his new owners in WV. Health Certificate, Vwd results, DCM results, Micro chipped, limited registration and a neuter contract. Oh I also forgot to mention life time return policy. I guess that makes me a BYB.

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Again do you sell your puppies througha broker, any of them.  I never said you sold it for $3500.00 what I saw was the broker sold it for you for $3500.00, I have no idea what the highway robber broker kept and what your cut was.  Why can't you answer the question?

DO YOU USE A BROKER TO SELL ANY OF YOUR PUPPIES??????????

 

YES OR NO IS ALL THAT IS NEEDED!!!!!!!

 

BTW if you have no idea what I am talking about then how is it tha tyou knew exactly what dog I was talking about.  That is really impressive that you were able to read my mind like that, you may now add psychic to your resume'.

ogs217's picture
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Happy you took my money? Is it worth it?

ogs217's picture
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AlphaAdmin: we never discussed any puppy whose ears were already cropped. There was never any change in my intentions. I was very specifica bout what I wanted and sent many questions over email, so there's no doubt what was eanted. I never wrote anything into the contract, it was sent to me by post as a printed out .pdf and it was completely filled out by Anita Clark - all price points, details, etc., and it was signed by her in ink, too. I counter-signed, enclosed a check and sent it back. Stop making stuff up.

TDAC's picture
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Now I know for sure you don't live in the real world. I never signed anything since the contract was not properly completed. 

TDAC's picture
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How is it that you know what the fecal results were on a puppy that I took in for a health certificate and what meds he was given. Maybe I should contact the vets office to see if they know you. I don't think they would appreciate you giving out client info.