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Joined: 2011-02-21

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Our boy, Maximus, is one year old now. He has a very calm and friendly way about him, was easy to train and is great with our baby daughter and our other little dog. He also won a prize as a pup and could be well suited for obedience training.

So I was thinking about offering him to people wanting to breed. Maybe cover some of the bills for his food (he eats more than me ;-) and I strongly feel he would produce wonderful Doberman offspring.

Of course I would do all the medical tests etc. and would make sure the other half of the equation is reputable.

So my concern: Maximus is a lot smaller than the rest (most of) the litter - he was the 9th of 11 pups. He now only weighs 70 pounds and is 68 cm (26.5 inches) at the shoulder. Our vet recently commented that he might only be about 80 pounds when he has finished growing and probably not any taller. Our breeder thought he'd grow for at least another six months and gain at least 20 pounds and a couple of inches. She would. His father is 74cm and 105 pounds so maybe she is right. Most female Doberman I meet tend to be almost as big as Maximus now. Maximus is very fit and healthy, gets loads of exercise and seems all-round very happy. His coat is shiny and he is really fast. So I am not really worried about his health. Nonetheless, I have two questions:

1) Does anyone remember how big their male Dobe was at aged 12 months and how big he is now? Is it therefore true that they can grow 30% in weight (and an inch or so in height) after reaching 1 yr old?

2) Assuming he doesn't grow much, do you think people would be interested in breeding their bitch with an under-average sized male?

 

Looking foward to any feedback!

Leighton 

KevinK's picture
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Firstly, he can't be bred responsibly for a while yet, as he is still a puppy.  Also, people that are into dogs typically want more than "I think he would produce great offspring".  How has he been proven?  Does he have any titles, confirmation or sports?  What is his linneage?  What are the common problems found in his lines?  What is the average longeivity in his lines, and what are the common causes of death?  How is his confirmation?  Do you have full or limited registration?  

If you breed right, you will not make money to cover anything, you will likely lose money.  Reputable breeders do not make money on a breeding, and if you make money, you are not doing something right.  The cost of the health tests will far outweigh the stud fee, and if you don't have your ducks in a row with titles, medical history, etc., you will never get any halfway decent bitches.  These breeders search far and wide for suitable studs, and some breeders travel across countries, and even across the world to find the right mate.  

So, my advice, if you are serious, is to think about these questions, and remember that your doing being nice  isn't a reason to breed.

DJ's Dad's picture
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Oh my.  So many things about this post that just dont sit right.  For one, he's only a year old--not even fully matured yet.   For another, you want to stud him out for money to help re-coop some of his food expenses??????  He won 'a prize'? What's that mean, anyhow?

Stop and really think about what you are presenting here to people that know and love this breed.  Your last line says 'looking forward to any feedback'.  Are you sure you want that?

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So, from the way you posted, I get the feeling you'd be putting Maximus on Craigslist to advertise for 'stud fees'.  Let me tell you what happens when you just breed your dog to any other dog based off of looks and in the hopes of making money...

the owner of the female ends up calling a vet, like my ER vet, late at night because the bitch has been in labor for almost 12 hours and no signs of a puppy.. something isn't right... they come down and have NO MONEY to treat the suffering dog.  None.  "Well we are broke, we bred our dog to make money".  Guess what?? That dog gets to keep on suffering, most likely goes septic from pups stuck in her uterus or birth canal, and dies a horrible death.

Do you want to help be responsible for this??

What about when the female has the pups but has complications a few days or weeks later.. mastitis or calcium depletion.. again they have no money to treat.  Why would they have money to treat their dog?? They only bred her to make beautiful puppies to sell for profit...

Or how about when these pups don't find a home, have disorders, or diseases you did not properly screen for when you pimped your dog out to make some money on a stud fee.  You aren't responsible any more, right?  WRONG.

Anyone can throw two dogs together and say "make babies"!! The people that think they are going to see a financial return on this action really make me mad.  I can go and list horror stories next if you want... I work in a very low income area and I can't get over the lack of education that goes in to this process.  I'm glad you posted your thoughts on this here so people can discourage you. 

KevinK's picture
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Here's a vote for neuter your boy, and just love him as the family pet he is.

Lori's picture
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There's enough 'nice' dogs in shelters - if you want to help the breed or just dogs in general don't add more puppies to the world just to make a buck for yourself.    You're pretty much telling us you want to become yet another Back-Yard -Breeder, don't expect encouragement here.

DJ's Dad's picture
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That would be my vote, too, Kevin.  I already knew I would be having Ziva spayed before I even got her.  So many people have told me since then that I should have bred her because they would love one of her puppies.  That's not what I got a doberman for, and I dont care how much it costs me to feed her.

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I second the vote on getting him neutered, it would be the one decision that would be right!

KevinK's picture
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My thoughts are if a dog truly has something to offer, then by all means, go through the right channels, learn what you have to learn, etc.  But the simple fact is that the vast majority of dogs should not be bred, and if everyone who thought they had a "nice" dog bred them, we would be in a much worse situation than we are now.  Dogs are killed in every city of the country, every day, because irresponsible people thought their dog was "nice".  I choose to rescue my pets, and help clean up the mess of these types of people.  But, even for all the people that like to rescue, for every dog that is saved, many more are killed.

Lady Kate's picture
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AAAAGGGGHHHHHHH!!!! You're killin me Leighton!

glengate's picture
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I was recently contacted by another breeder about using one of my males.  It's not the first time I've been contacted, but it is the first time I actually consented.

First of all, she asked me all about his pedigree, his siblings, his parents, their siblings, and every ancestor I had information on.  We compared notes on the dogs in the pedigree, things we like, things we don't, things we've heard, things we know, etc.  We talked about teeth, testicles, health issues, ages and causes of death, heads, feet, toplines, eyes, necks, fronts, movement, etc.  Can you talk knowledgeably about all of these things when it comes to your dog and his pedigree/ancestors?  No offense, but it doesn't sound that way from the little you posted. 

We are both breeders concerned about health and longevity.  Obviously, my male needed to be fully health tested.  Here's what it cost:

$99 vWD DNA test
$151 brucellosis test
$197 full thyroid panel, liver/kidney panel/CBC
$57 CERF exam for inherited eye problems
$100 cardiac ultrasound (keeping in mind that we are extremely fortunate in my area to have a university study going on, others pay upwards of $600 for this)
$51 PDK4 DNA test for the only gene they've found so far said to cause dilated cardiomyopathy
$235 OFA hip and elbow x-rays and evaluations

I might add that this doesn't include the cost of travelling to all of these clinics (gas is currently $5.25 per gallon here) or my time at all. It was a 90 minute drive to the CERF vet, it's another 90 minute drive to the Vet College for heart exams, it's a 45 minute drive just to my own vet clinic, etc. There were also mailing expenses for the vWD DNA test, for the PDK4 DNA test, for the OFA x-rays, etc. I also might add that it doesn't include any costs for proving the dog's worth for breeding through showing, titling, etc. We're talking about health testing only.

So, we're up to, what, over $900, just to do health testing on a male prior to breeding. He hasn't had a Holter test yet. I intend to buy a monitor which will be $500 and then I'll have a couple of jackets made for when they're wearing it (cost unknown right now) and it'll be $35, I think, for each Holter. He'll be Holtered every year once I have the monitor so the price for keeping up with his testing, and letting his puppy owners know, will continue for the life of the dog. Same for his thyroid, liver/kidney panels and cardiac ultrasounds. The expense is not over.  And by the way, we can provide that kind of information for the grandparents of the litter, etc. It's not cheap to produce healthy dogs.

I had to have a stud contract all prepared and ready.  Have you thought about that?

Where was the bitch and her owner going to stay?  I checked out hotels in the area but they're not really that close so I invited them to stay at my home.  It can be pretty disruptive having a strange dog in your house, who is in season to boot. 

We were lucky, the breedings progressed naturally but that's not always how it goes.  You have to be prepared to physically help (and I mean "physically"), you have to be prepared to go for artificial inseminations if necessary and have a vet lined up for this. 

You have to have a suitable location for breeding keeping in mind that there are natural fluids being released all over the place during the course of dogs mating.  It's messy and smelly. 

Of course, the bitch came into season and it looked like I was going to have her over the Christmas vacation so family plans all had to be altered because nature doesn't always cooperate with the rest of your life.  I had to sweet talk my vet into being available if insemination became necessary over the holiday.  As it turned out, she was bred and left on Christmas day. 

I got the news last week that the breedings did not take.  This means I have to welcome them back again on her next season, but in the meantime I have to take my male to a reproductive specialist to have his semen quality checked.  I have no idea what that is going to cost. 

My male is from a long line of champions with many performance titles as well.  I'm not bragging by saying that I think I can probably command a higher stud fee than you could, and I am well in the hole despite the stud fee.  There is certainly nothing "left over" to help out with his food costs!

glengate's picture
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I was just reading in another thread that you're in Germany.  Don't Dobermans have to undergo fit for breeding exams there to be registerable?

nupe's picture
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I was cringing reading this post...but remeber guys we also dont want to run anyone off the forum....Keep in mind we are also trying to educate here...just my 2 cents...!!

sweetpea's picture
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Well said, Glengate, well said. 

jeshykai's picture
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Thanks for taking the time to write such an eloquent response Glengate.

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Ahhhh Glengate, I always look forward to your "Let's set things straight" posts. :) 

Lady Kate's picture
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Thank You Glengate.!!

Good luck next season.

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Wow all I can say is the little bit of experience ive had with breeding dogs is no fun and thats just witnessing the whelping process.

A lab my mom had that got prego from the neighbors dogs and we didnt relized what had happened until we had a puppy on the floor. now dont cruicify me for this, you're probally thinking how could you miss THAT!! but she was an obese dog when we found her wondering the higway one very icy cold winter night. My mother and I could not stand to see her alone like that so we took her home and  we tryed to find her owner but to no avail....we came to the conclusion that a millitary family dumped her there because they were moving and could not take her. Now we thought that we had kept her contained but as we found out the hard way its not always the bitch you have to worry about escaping but the males who decide that they want in. 

Now since we did not witness a heat cycle on her we thought that she was spayed already when we asked our vet if she could tell she said it looked like she had surgery done becuase she did have a scar but without spending money we didnt have for an ultrasound we went with that. hind sight is 20/20. so we put her on a diet and decided to give her a forever home. We went for walks everyday and controlled her food intake.... little did we know that she was loosing wieght but gaining puppy and prego weight......

Then it happened. When we first saw the wet black thing on the floor we thought that she had swolled part of her bedding (she was an avid chewer) and then threw it up but then IT YELPED!!!! Then the "fun" began trying to help her, becuase she was not hadling it well, along with the 14 puppies she had. Not to mention the nursing of the pups since we lost her do to loosing to much blood from the last VERY LARGE Puppy which we then found out it was what our vet called "a water puppy it think".

Sorry for the long explination as to why I do not like the idea of having puppies, granted if we had known what was going on and was more prepared my opion might be a little different.

So as you can probally guess, I highly recomend for people to spay and neuter their dogs. 

If you do want to breed your boy please take everyones advice from this forum and do all the nessecary steps so that you dont have the experiece we did. Granted what happened to my Jill was rare please dont take the chance, She would have been a wonderful examle to her breed (if she was infact a purebred Chocolate Lab) if we had done that ultrasound. that money would have well spent, but like I said hindsight is 20/20. 

for those of you wondering about the 14 puppies, we lost 6 during the next couple of days. one was deformed and could not open his mouth to eat and the other 5 were extremely small.  we then lost one for unknown reasons, probally a deformation unseen to the eye, about a week later. The final 6 were happy health puppies who are hopefully enjoying their lives with their new familys. 

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Palomino, that is such a sad story :( Good thing it has a happy ending!!

 

Maximus, I suggest not breeding your dog.. I'm sure he's a great dog, but what happens if the female isn't as great? What if the female's owners don't rehome the puppies well? What would you do then? They're still your responsibility. On top of that, Maximus can go his whole life without getting any dog pregnant. There are plenty of dogs in the shelter that need a home as much as puppies do. Please reconsider. Breeding isn't a money-making profession. It's a hobby. The breeders here have told me that and I take it to heart (I want to become a reputable breeder in the future).

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Wow. My mama always said "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all"

So I'm just gonna say, please please please please take the advice that has been provided for you on this post.

If you have a craigs list ad up already, please please please take it down!

We all have so much love and compassion for this breed, as I'm sure you understand, And we don't want any harm to ever come to them.

I'm so glad you have come here first and asked your questions. I can't thank you enough for this. So now please don't breed your boy for all the reasons stated above.

I truly hope you get your boy neutered and continue to love and cherish him as your family pet and personal BFF :D

And remember, we are all here to help, so don't stop asking

Joined: 2011-02-21

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okay, okay, I get it. You don't like the idea.

But let me set a few things straight because I know you are all (like me) very much interested in the well-being of our beautiful animals. Nonetheless, the conclusions /assumptions some of you make are somewhat premature not to say partially insulting:

I wrote that I was "thinking" about breeding him. And its not because he's "nice"! (that was your word) Although he is ;-)

It would take me at least six months to get him through the "Begleithund" training (like a softer version of Schutzhund training) and then there is all the vet testing, registration etc. and of course he is still too young. I was thinking about the investment and I am NOT rushing into anything. He is NOT on Craig's List. He is a dog, not an old piece of furniture. I will (if I go ahead) use the offical VDH or the IHV listings (like the AKC in the US, I presume) and no breeder from those associations in Germany would go near a dog that wasn't vet tested, registered, proven etc. To be allowed to take home my dog 10 months ago, I practically had to undergo an interview, means, personality test etc. with the breeder. Western Europe is a sophisticated place with lots of animal lovers who are also professional breeders, you know?

And yes, I have all the documentation of his ancestors, who have all been tested for the potential Doberman-illnesses (I'll save listing them in the interest of time but can you just believe me on this one, I read a lot on the topic and am aware of potential issues and association standard requirements). 

I know it is expensive: this is Germany. I am pretty sure I would have to pay at least double what Glengate listed as costs. Here in Germany, its all about paperwork and rules and regulations. Car Driving license costs EUR 2000 or more for lessons, exams, certification etc.  My driving license when I was living in the US cost me 10 USD! Why else did I do my Pilot's license in the US...?

I am a chartered management accoutant with regional CFO role at a large listed international company so yes, I am capable of grasping the concept of a contract, thank you (sorry if that last line sounds arrogant but I'm just trying to get my point across). And I don't need the money for his food. I put in a smilie next to my comment but maybe I wasn't clear. His food cost is a rounding error in my monthly budget. It's not about the money, its about a potential intensification of what is already my hobby (and reputable breeders have expressed vague, early interest and many dog-owners have commended my dog-handling).

Lastly, I have to ask, if you are all so interested in the dog's well-being, why do you all chop and clip its natural body parts? That cant be more than for aesthetic reasons, right? Its illegal here in Germany. Don't get me wrong, I am open minded and maybe the "pain" is not an issue. Your animals certainly look rather majestic.

So, now that I have clarified that i am JUST THINKING about offering Maximus to breeders (and well aware of the time and money elements and the research, care and preparation needed), can anyone answer my two questions:

1) Does anyone remember how big their male Dobe was at aged 12 months and how big he is now? Is it therefore true that they can grow 30% in weight (and an inch or so in height) after reaching 1 yr old?

2) Assuming he doesn't grow much, do you think people would be interested in breeding their bitch with an under-average sized male?

Let's imagine I had put those questions up under "Doberaman Health" and never mentioned anything about breeding. Right now the chances of it all happening sometime in 9-12 months are probably at about 10-20% max.

Finally, whatever happens, I will certainly love him as a pet and bff. Now we're off for today's 12 KM run cos he says I'm unfit and slow... ;-)

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Thanks for clearing all that up for us Leighton. I am not a breeder nor ever intend to be so I'm afraid I can't answer any of your questions. Harley is a week off 11 months and is around the 35kgs mark. He has gained about 5 kg / month for the last 3 or so months. He is my first doberkid. Not sure if that helps you though.

  Lastly, I have to ask, if you are all so interested in the dog's well-being, why do you all chop and clip its natural body parts? That cant be more than for aesthetic reasons, right? Its illegal here in Germany. Don't get me wrong, I am open minded and maybe the "pain" is not an issue. Your animals certainly look rather majestic.

Well not ALL of us have our kids cropped or docked. I for one do not. But IMHO It is a personal choice and doesn't affect the general health and well being of the animal, when done properly by a fully qualified AND experienced vet, so really it is a personal choice and who are we to judge them for it. Right?

No back to the op. I would suggest speaking to Maximus' breeder about potential breeding him. If you do want to become a breeder there are alot of things to be considered as I am sure you are aware of. But your breeder can be there to assist you and you can be assured that things will be done properly. Well that's my input anway.

Would love to see some pics of your boy! :)

sweetpea's picture
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*bangs head against wall*

I still don't think you get it.

"And yes, I have all the documentation of his ancestors, who have all been tested for the potential Doberman-illnesses (I'll save listing them in the interest of time but can you just believe me on this one, I read a lot on the topic and am aware of potential issues and association standard requirements)."

This to me says you DON'T know what the common health issues are because it takes less time to type, for example, "thyroid, vwd, DCM, hips, elbows, eyes etc" than it does to type your long-winded reason of why you didn't have time to list them. 

"Assuming he doesn't grow much, do you think people would be interested in breeding their bitch with an under-average sized male?"

26.5 inches and 70-80 lbs is not an under-sized male.  AKC standard calls for dogs to be 26-28" at the withers. 

"To be allowed to take home my dog 10 months ago, I practically had to undergo an interview, means, personality test etc. with the breeder. Western Europe is a sophisticated place with lots of animal lovers who are also professional breeders, you know?"

Did your breeder give you the breeding rights for your male?  Are they aware that you're thinking of offering him for stud?  Did they sell him to you as a show prospect or as a pet quality puppy?  Just curious.

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As you said, it will take you at least 6 months to get to the point of being ready for a BH.  But don't male Dobermans in Germany have to also earn at least a SchI to be eligible for breeding?  All of that will take a serious time commitment. 

To answer your other questions, no, I don't think that people would be all that interested in a smaller male when it comes to breeding decisions.  And again, would he be able to get a grade that makes him eligible for breeding if he remains on the smaller side? 

Who can say if he's going to grow at this age?  We don't have crystal balls.  In my experience, they have usually attained their height by a year, but will continue to fill out some.  Maybe your dog's lines are different. 

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Frag Deinen Zuechter ob Dein Hund von einer Arbeits oder Show Linie kommt! Die Dobermaenner in meiner Familie waren immer einen Tad groesser wenn Sie von einer Arbeits Linie kamen, waerend die Show Hunde mehr 'elegant/schlank' gebaut waren :)

Es ist auch eine Gute Idee durch den Zuechter in ein Zucht Programm zu kommen!

Nimm die Kommentare hier nicht zu Herzen! Hier in Amerika wurde mehr Unfug mit Rasse Hunden getrieben als zu Hause in Deutschland und Dobie Lover sind super protective wenn es um die suessen geht! Es ist kein persoenlicher Anfriff ^^

Du kannst eine Menge Leute auf W-K-W finden die Dir bestimmt weiterhelfen koennen! Es hilft auch einem Hundeverein beizutreten. (Wenn Du nicht schon Mitglied bist!)

Ich wuensche Dir viel Glueck! Es ist ein Haufen Arbeit und Verantwortung seinen Hund in ein Zuchtprogramm zu bekommen!!! Habe das in Deutschland mit unserem Bernhadiener mitgemacht! Du musst Dir auch die passenden Hundeeltern der Huendin aussuchen. (Ist schwer, mann muss sich auch als Menschen riechen koennen!) Geld steckt in der Sache leider nicht drinne wenn man es verantwortlich macht :(

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Wld b, glad to hear you are not putting your dog in Craigs list! Lol If you are seriously considering breeding your dog I would definitely talk to the breeders in your area, I'm sure they could give you all the info you need. 

 

As to the cropping, I think this is an interesting topic because laws and views are very different from place to place. First, I personally view it just as cruel as human circumcision. There is less of a chance of getting an infection if a male is circumcised, and less of a chance of getting an ear infection if a dobie is cropped. Granted, these are both debatable topics within healthcare, but most circumcised guys don't report it being a traumatic experience. Lol Moreover, ear cropping is actually more natural, in a certain sense. Since dogs are primarily descended from wolves, the floppy ear is actually a human created characteristic that has been bred into dogs over thousands of years. This is because over the years people have bred dogs for "puppy-like" characteristics, the term for this is called "neoteny". Therefore the crop is actually bringing the ear back to its original wolf-like shape. 

 

And that's the daily history lesson! Lol :)

Joined: 2011-02-21

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DextersMom, danke für Deine Worte. Ich bin am Sonntag in Idstein beim Züchter und werde nach der Linie nachfragen. Wegen dem BH Training muss ich einem Hundeverein sowieso beitreten aber wir sind Anfang des Jahres umgezogen dehalb muss ich mich informieren wo ich am besten Mitglied sein moechte.

The prize was at a regional CACIB exhibition and he won in the Doberman puppy section.

I'm planning to take Maximus through the Begleithund training (I've intended to do this before even considering breeding him and regardless of whether I do) and this could take much longer than 6 months. I'll post again then. Until then, don't worry, no plans to breed him.

Right now, I am more concerned with his being a ball-junky. Cesar Milan describes ball fixation as an "issue" so I guess I need to let him play with the ball less often. This morning I couldn't get him to play with another young dog (who was literally "hounding" him to play) because he knew I had his ball with me. Any tips on that topic would be appreciated.

Generally, you don't need Schutzhund training in Germany to be registered but it certainly increases interest.

From what some of you said (thanks for the info) Maximus (68cm, 32kgs at 1yr) probably wont grow much taller and might only bulk up to around 35 kgs. So i guess he is a little under average - which might well be a K.O. criteria for breeding him anyway. Again, that's fine - he's adorable whatever his size and he still leaves me standing on our runs together...

I look forward to reading any of your stories around breeding which a couple of you are doing/planning from reading the above.

One thing I will add, I am not planning to neuter Maximus. Heard too much negative from other dog-owners (weight gain, deterioration of fur, even increased agressions etc.) and I don't like to "mess" with his natural set-up (hormones etc.). Ironic though, the vet told me the other day that having him neutered could cause a growth spurt. Any of your experiences about what (if any) changes occured due to castration would be interesting. I will re-consider in 6 months or a year. 

I'd love to post a few piccies but I simply can't find the "upload photos" option on this site.

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You can upload pictures after you put them on a site like photobucket.com. After that you just copy the [img] link and paste it into your post :) I don't see how neutering your dog could give him a growth spurt??? But many Vets say a lot of things to get you to neuter/spay your dog! He might gain some weight... not muscle^^

Cropping is a touchy subject! Being born and raised in Germany, I was the opinion that it should not be done! After watching our first Doberman here suffering from ear infections, over and over again, rubbing the tips of her ears bloody and scratching all the time... We had her on antibiotics every 2 months with only days in between infections!

We had our new Dobes ears done mostly to avoid infections, with the hope it will make a difference. I was surprised how he handled it!!! When Sasha got spayed, she moved in slow motion for days, was sluggish and just out of it. You could tell that she was in pain!

Dexter was jumpy, hyper and playful as soon as the Vet handed him to us! No sign of discomfort and his ears healed up in no time! I too was scared and concerned... but for nothing, I have to admit! I understand both sides of the argument. At least I try to :) A Doberman is beautiful, ears cropped or not!

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To answer your neuter questions, it typically will not change behavior at all.  I think most people just use it as an excuse, because they don't know any better, and people in general try to find a reason other than themselves that their dog is acting the way it is...  "Why is he getting mean" or "Why is he getting fat" well, we neutered him, so it must be that!!  lol.  Not how it works.  The dog got fat because he eats spaghetti and meatballs with the family lol.

Normally, the only difference in behavior you would see is behaiors associated with mating, and that's about it.  General day to day behavior is not really going to change.

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"His food cost is a rounding error in my monthly budget."

wld-b-dobe-owner - I am not a breeder and I don't even have my dobe yet....however THANK YOU for the nice chuckle!  I am also an accountant and appreciate your humor  
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why is he so fixated upon size? I thought Dobermans aren't suppose to be so big and health should be the number one priority... Isn't a 70~80lb Doberman male a good range? Just some questions from a noob.

I believe that the European standard does have weight mentioned in it - so it would make sense that this would be of interest.

Even in the USA standard where no weight is mentioned, I would tend to think of a male that is under 80 lbs (and not thin) at maturity as a bit light.  My Harvard is not a big dog - he is right about 27" at the withers. He weighs in at 85-88 lbs. Show weight is around 88 - non show weight is a little lighter normally. 

Weight to height in a dog that is not under or over weight will speak to bone mass - and heavier bone is desired in both standards for a male.

Holly's picture
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Joined: 2011-12-20

IF you wanna Breed your dog, then breed him. I dont plan on Breeding my female just because i dont want that responsibility. Just dont abuse it. Every dog has someone in their bloodline somewhere that was not a champion! I am a big supporter of spay and neuter, but I dont believe that the dog has to be a champion to sire pups. Some people actually have Dobermans that are not registered! Oh my i am sure some of you people reading this are shocked. My Dobe (is AKC registered) is not a champion and she dont have any champion blood that I am aware of. Do I plan on Breeding her? no, but that is a personal choice. However, If i did Breed her, and the pups were like her then they would make someone an amazing pet. I understand that their are dogs in pounds that need homes, and people abuse dogs sometime. That is HORRIBLE. However, Humans are the same way. I am sure that 99% of the people on this site are not champion humans, but still you reproduce. There are children who are abused and who are in orphaniages, but still, did you say Eh, I am going to get fixed and adopt a child. There are PLENTY of people who need not to reproduce! All I am saying is if someone wants to breed their dogs, dont be so judgemental. Constructive criticism is understandable, but sometime some people just get carried away and are down right MEAN!

glengate's picture
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Many humans choose not reproduce.  I'm one of them.  Hey, I wouldn't want to pass on that MEAN gene, right? 

Holly - with all due respect.... do you ever look at how many Dobermans are in shelters and rescues??  They didn't come from good breeders - they mostly came from people who just decided to breed their pets to make more pets - and sold to people that just wanted a pet.  Beyond making sure a dog is worthy to pass on their genes, being a breeder is more than breeding and selling - it is about being responsible for everything you ever produced FOREVER.  Most people like the OP don't ever think beyond the dollar signs, and are not interested in following the lives of every puppy they produced ... or their stud dog produced. But, guess what?  If you have the stud, you are just as responsible for those puppies as the bitch owner.  I personally wish we could take every Doberman in a shelter and trace it back to the "breeder" and make them responsible for either rehoming it or holding it while it is euthanized - that might make them think a little more about breeding their "pets"!!  So forgive some of us for being "Judgemental" - we really care little if we hurt someones "feelings" if in doing so it might possibly save the suffering of some or all of the puppies they produce. 

Comparing people and dogs is ... well, it is just ludicrous IMHO. 

and Mary..... if you had wanted kids, you would have been a great mom  :-)

glengate's picture
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Joined: 2009-07-22

I know, I've been told that a few times actually.  I am a great aunt.  ;-) 

talisin's picture
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Joined: 2011-02-25

I have read this one and it upsets me since I work in rescue; the thing is to me - if you don't care or think it necessary to have done the homework and years and years of research to breed responsibly then those wanting to breed for the sake of having a litter of cute puppies need to just go out and rescue a dog in need and forego the breeding - after all if championships and research are not important then any old dog from the shelter should be sufficient. Unless it is the goal to create more homeless puppies and adults. Why would anyone want to breed to create puppies that may have health issues, be abandoned or worse??? For that 8 week time period of having puppies to oooo and ahhhhh over??? then poof they are gone never to be thought of again??? that's terrible!!! Adoption is the answer not more homeless dogs/puppies. What happens when all the puppies are not purchased?? and they get old enough to where the cute factor won't get them adopted will the so called breeder be working with each individual puppy to train and educate them so that they can still be adopted out later - probably not, they will end up in shelters or given away which usually ends up with there being no "value" placed on the dog and it still ends up disposable. Irresponsible breeding is the reason dogs/puppies die every second of every day whether by euthanasia or abuse/neglect. Every second of every day - who in their right mind would add to those statistics???? It's just not right. Breeding should be left to those who do it for the betterment of the breed and adoption should be the goal for everybody else. As for people reproducing that's a whole other soap box for me, I chose not to have children and I am appalled by those who choose to have children as irresponsibly as those that breed dogs for the h....of it.

Sorry I ranted on this one, it's rare that you will see me get upset on a forum but it just upsets me so much to hear about people who "just want to breed" for the sake of having puppies...........