SearchStimulation/shock collar training
It's been awhile since I posted-like a long while, but enjoyed reading all the helpful information today and wanted to post a question about stimulation collars. Who has used them and any advice? My female Dobie, Jasmine, is now about 11 months old. She is a wonderful dog and I am very happy with her. We have gone through basic obedience and Jasmine heels, sits, stays, down and recalls quite good. Lately recall is needing some brushing up but I have noticed as she is maturing she has"teenage" days where she tests me so all the obedience has to be continually freshened; there seems to be no "arriving" stage with obedience. Anyhow, I do have one major behavior I want to discourage and I have a stimulation collar I am reading up on to use for this behavior: chasing my horses. My MinPin fully taught Jasmine to do this--one day at about 7 months she just started doing it. If I'm outside she will generally ignore me if a horse starts to run and she takes off after it. If I get within a decent distance of her though and shout "out" she will usually cease and desist and I can also make her down/stay while I'm feeding to discourage it. She does not go inside the fence line as she has been shocked by the electric fence but the chasing and barking needs to stop. If I'm not outside to get after her and it is just my husband/daughter she will chase the horses non stop and the behavior has gotten pretty ingrained already. Shes very smart and knows how to be sneaky to have some "fun." So...here is where the collar is coming in. Since getting shocked by the fence did such a great job I'm hoping the collar will also work well for this and imprint in her mind it is NOT okay. There is an entire method to training with stimulation I'm finding but I want to be careful. Hence, the reason for this posting. I use positive reinforcement whenever possible but I do believe dogs need negative reinforcement at times. Experiences with this particular method?
Dobermans tend to do very poorly with negative reinforcement. I would work on desensitizing your dog to the horses, and if you know this is an ongoing thing, I would use a long lead around them. Using the long lead in conjunction with the desensitizing would be best. Dobes tend to be too sensitive to negative reinforcement, and you may find your dog not wanting to try new things for fear of being shocked. I would continue on working on your training, and keep the lead handy until you have a reliable recall under all conditions.
I'm not totally against shock collars, but you need to know how to use them correctly and I always look to training without them first - to me they are a last resort.
The long line suggestion by Kevin is a good idea. If she is not trustworthy off lead yet, don't set her up for failure by letting her off lead. JMHO
We did obedience training with the company Sit Means Sit, and their method of structure was using the stimulation collar. We used them mainly to correct destructive behaviors. Has worked 100% and I do recommend it. Our dog has done a complete 180 from the time we started training to today so i'm very pleased!
Thanks all for the comments. I do understand some people feel strongly about shock collars and its certainly a personal thing. As I said, I've found negative reinforcement is necessary and since it surely exists in a pack I feel it is sound. I try to follow the 70/30 rule: at least 70% postive to 30% negative reinforcement. I will say that my horse probably enjoys the running but for me it is about the dog understanding that activity with a flight animal (running or spooking or anything horses do when startled) should never mean they get excited and chase. One day my daughter's horse was standing tied and got antsy. Jasmine instantly perked up and acted like she wanted to get in on the "action." I immediately called her off and all was well but this has all started with the running the fence line and its just not okay. She is perfectly desensitized to the horses and goes in the stalls to feed with me if I allow it, etc. etc. She obeys very well if I am right there BUT if I should go in the house and she's outside with my husband or whoever and the horses run around its "game on" for her. I want her to never think its okay to get the horses to run, period, whether I am there or not. This is a general safety thing as she often goes with me to shows, rodeo, etc. During these times she is on lead, of course, but it is still a safety issue (for me).
negative reinforcement does not exist in the animal world, but positive punishment does. Sounds like what you're talking about is positive punishment. I don't like to use positive punishment with dobes, negative punishment I find to work better. Lots of times dobes have high prey drive, so it becomes difficult to stop something like this without having a solid understanding of dog training, because it's a breed trait, it's what they do. It's like trying to get a lab to not like the water. You may teach him not to go in the water, but that doesn't mean he no longer likes the water, if that makes sense...
suppose you like pizza, and I don't want you to eat pizza. So, you eat pizza, and I zap you. You eat pizza again, and I zap you. Now, suppose you eat a cupcake, and I don't like that either. I zap you. What is going to happen, is over time, you are going to be scared to eat, not because you don't like to eat, or are not hungry, but because you are scared of being zapped for eating the wrong thing. This is why it becomes absolutely necessary to understand when, how, why, etc. to correct a dog in this type of manner. The goal of dog training is trying to work towards an operant dog that is not afraid to problem solve, and not afraid to try new things. So I know I sound like a broken record, but if something is done wrong, even minimally, the dog doesn't understand, and can potentially shut down. Marking behaviors is a very, very small window, maybe 1-2 seconds max. Anything outside of that window is not an effective marker.
If you ran full speed, your dog would probably chase you too. Instead of trying to stop the chasing, I work on fundamental training, like stay, watch, lay down, etc. This way, you can get your dog to stop before he start running, as opposed to stopping him when he's going full speed already, which is going to be near impossible. As far as using a shock collar, if it's done incorrectly, it will creat more problems than it solves. You still have to be able to clearly mark the behavior so your dog understands why he's being punished. And I feel like with your typical dobe, if you can propperly mark the behavior, than you don't need the shock collar. But the idea is to stop your dog BEFORE he takes off, not after.
With a breed like dobermans, if this is not done propperly, (using the collar) you will have many future problems, and a dog that becomes afraid to think. So I would just make sure you have a solid understanding, like you are doing now, before deciding.
My sister had a lab that would chase the neighbors horses.. and would get kicked and still did it.. she got one of those systems that is like an invisible fence.. you set it for what distance you want to contain the dog.. then there is the collar to go with it.. there is a warning when the dog gets close to the invisible fence.. then a slight shock and you set it accroding how your dogs reaction to it.. the main unit is plugged in the wall of your house ant then you set it for distance.. in your case you would set it so many feet before the fence.. I would way befor the fence lol.
The system to me seem totally humane.. I think the system is around 300$ in the pet catalogs
hugs
Bet
the invisible fences work great on less drivey dogs, but they absolutely will not contain a higher drive dog.
I can see that now that you mention that.. 'sorry
Bet
I appreciate the pizza/cupcake analogy that was a good example of how things can be misunderstood by the dog. I have a sore spot for shock collars pardon the pun but I used to believe in them then I put one of the recent ones on my arm and was totally surprised by how horrible it was on my arm can't imagine it on a neck. And this was not to stop barking this was just a deterent for inside the house to prevent the dog from going to the litter box for a helping, you established the "zone" and set up the barrier beam and then put the collar on the dog - on the lowest setting it was horribly shocking, so I hate them, companies do not realize how tender the neck is and if it hurts a human it will hurt a dog. I am sure there are some that are mild but I haven't found one yet. So I agree that if you can "mark" the behavior with the collar then you can mark it in a more positive way.....keeping things positive is always a good thing.... I know my husband is bad to grab for Ben when ben starts to race off the porch to bark at someone walking by and Ben resists and its a struggle but I can say "hey Ben, look at me" and he will turn and come to me to look at me.....cause he relates looking at me with a yummy treat whereas man handling him was just making him resist and get pushy.....
I hope the horse chasing stops - like kevin said if you were running wide open your dog would chase you it's a game and its instinct......
I'm kind of on the fence (keeping these puns going:) with the collar...Jasmine had a really good moment today so I might wait and see how things shape up as she matures and we continue with the basic obedience. Today was in the barn and my horse was really fresh; you could hear thundering hooves in the field as he tore around. Jasmine got alert and tense, looking outside like she wanted to bolt. I spoke to her and kept her by my side (verbally, no physical restraint) and she was such a very good girl. Outside the thundering hooves just kept going and I praised her for waiting and having self control. Didn't attempt to go outside because that seemed like too much stimulation to count on her off lead. She knows "wait" but its not a command yet. Anyway, she's a smart girl and likes to please. I have the collar but will probably hold off until I have more information or see a definite need.
If anyone is interested though, I will share some tips from the "training manual" that came with the collar. Some guy who is semi-famous for bird dog training. Anyhow, his very first exercise with the collar is to use it with the command "kennel." AFter the dog knows the command for going inside its crate, you put the collar on the dog with the lowest setting (dog should feel it but not be in pain) and stimulate the dog FIRST, then say the command "kennel." As soon as the dog goes in the kennel you cease the stimulation. The method is meant to build confidence in the dog because the dog learns first how to"turn off" the stimulation. After the dog will go inside the kennel just from the first seconds of stimulation you reverse the sequence and say the command first, THEN stimulate only if the dog refuses to go in. The "safe zone" becomes the kennel and the dog builds on that as the safe zone then becomes obedience to other commands. The dog is in charge of turning off the stimulation. I'm not saying this works or doesn't, it was simply interesting to me so thought I'd share. Especially the reversal of commands. I do agree that being clear and consistent is critical in dog training, of any kind.
What this guy is suggesting is called Negative Reinforcement and is a VERY bad way to train a dog. You are punishing the dog for doing nothing and then rewarding him by taking away a PUNISHMENT that it shouldn't have gotten in the first place. I suggest taking the collar, put it at the lowest setting, and put it on your arm to see if it hurts... is it truly painless??? A stimulation/SHOCK collar should only be used as a last resort, it can cause a lot more problems than it solves and should never be used as an only training tool or for basic commands.
Yes, that is in fact called negative reinforcement, and like I said here and in our private emails, it's not something I would recommend, especially on a doberman. It's an outdated practice that good trainers stopped using decades ago, opting for more positive methods which get better results, faster, with less fear, stress, and confusion.
I can't endorse the info I shared, but the debate about positive/negative reinforcement is ongoing and perhaps will never stop. I work with horses, too, and have trained several and this is also a debate in horses with hardly any two trainers in agreement(it seems). My own conclusion is one needs both. I've read several books on clicker/treat training including the very excellent Karen Pryor (Don't Shoot the Dog/Reaching the Animal Mind). While I agree with some of the science behind emotions and training, I have yet to meet a consistently obedient dog trained only with treats/positive reinforcement. Not saying there aren't some or trying to start a debate, just my own experience. Treat trained dogs--the ones I've met--were consistent in a sterile environment only, when nothing more interesting than the treat was going on. The smarter the dog, the more they played "the system." In my area of the country--Pacific NW--treat training is very popular and anything using negative motivation such as a "check" collar is looked down upon. However, when I decided to get a Dobie I knew I was getting a BIG, smart dog that people would naturally be afraid of. I wanted her to be obedient and because I often met well mannered dogs coming from a specific "old school" training place I took her there for basic obedience and am very pleased with the result. I will say I modified some methodology for "down" because I found it too harsh for my dog. She is quite sensitive and I think every dog should be treated as an individual. Kevin, perhaps you can explain "positive punishment," as I'm not familiar with that terminology. I would consider a check chain to be negative reinforcement--example: The dog knows heel, chooses to forge, and is "checked" into position. The dog is then negatively motivated to respect the heel command. I see positive motivation as improper position at heel, for instance, is ignored but a correct position is quickly rewarded with a treat or a click/treat. I am not against positively motivating my dog at all and do occasionally sharpen existing commands with the addition of a treat. Also, once Jasmine was obedient to basic commands I began treat training for tricks as something fun that gets her thinking and allows her to choose behavior. She bows, shakes, and will target on things now. In the end, raising dogs is similar to kids I have found. People can be really attached to their methods/beliefs/moral absolutes and more than one thing can work. The proof is in the adult individual--are they safe, trust worthy, well adjusted, and a pleasure to be around? JMHO
^^Your example shows poor execution of a method, not a flawed method. When a dog understands the commands in a quiet place, like inside your house, the training needs to be expanded to cover other areas, and can be done anytime, like while on a walk, while in the park, etc. Your dog needs ot be exposed to all kinds of conditions in training so that they don't just listen say, in the yard. You vary what commands you use, so that your dog doesn't just memorize the order, and is actually responding to the commands.
For pulling on a choke chain, that would be positive punishment, not negative reinforcement. Negative reinforcement would be constantly choking your dog until he was in heel position, and releasing the tension once the desired position was met.
In terms of general training, here's what the positive/negative reinforcement/punishment means. In training like this, positive and negative doesn't mean good and bad, it means adding, and taking away. So, examples:
Positive Reinforcement: Dog does what he's told, gets rewarded for it. Doesn't matter what the reward is, could be a treat, toy, game, pat on the head, etc. The reward should be what your dog responds best to. This is used for initial training... once your dog understands the commands, you start weaning out the reward, so that you don't build a dog that will not respond if you don't have the reward.
Negative reinforcement: This is applying some type of pressure until a dog does the desired task, then the pressure stops. Most commonly used with a shock collar... You tell a dog to sit, and you start tapping the button "shock....shock...shock...shock..." When the dog does the desired task, you stop shocking. So in this case, you are not rewarding, you are stopping (taking away) a negative stimulus. The dog is not working for a reward, he's working to stop the uncomfortable feeling.
Positive Punishment: This is adding punishment to try to stop an undesired behavior. Dog pulls on a lead, you pull to correct. You are ading punishment.
Negative Punishment: Dog doesn't listen, so you take something away. Example, you're playing tug, and your dog isn't listening, you take the tug away.
In nearly every situation, when done propperly, with a doberman, they will respond better, faster, be less confused, and more responsive to positive reinforcement than negative. It is always easier to show a dog what you WANT them to do, as opposed to teaching many things NOT to do. You will also be working towards an operant dog, which many times negative reinforcement will not allow with dobes. Same goes with people, and many other types of animals as well. It will almost always be much easier to just teach a desired behavior, as opposed to correcting, or trying to avoid many other behaviors.
Very clearly explained Kevin, thanks. You must be pretty experienced training dogs and/or tried lots of techniques. I've trained more horses than dogs and my Doberman is the first dog I've made a significant effort with (still ongoing). Not surprisingly, she's a great dog.
Hi I'm new to the forum and have been trying to read other's post to learn more about how exactly to handle my rescued 2 year old male dobe. This post has been very insightful! Thanks!
Another member of the forum recommended I read the information on the webpage Leerburg.com. They have a very interesting article on corrections where they also talk about this. http://leerburg.com/corrections.htm that might help you make the right decision for you. I'm kind of the same place, as you are PNWDobe, trying to find the right balance between what really works and what doesn't, as well as creating a trusting working relationship with my dog.
He talks about using the shock collar for what he calls "avoidance corrections" and explains why he doesn't like using them as escape training or from what I understand is negative reinforcement as Kevin has explained very clearly. (this is all new terminology to me so I hope I'm getting it right). Anyway it is very interesting, but I would be very interested in hearing others (Kevin's
) opinions about using it as he suggested for avoidance corrections? Specifically with dobes. The guy from the article works mostly with GSD and I know there is a lot of difference between these two breeds.
Thanks!
Savannah
Hi Savannah, welcome to the forum. I joined months ago but really never posted, just enjoyed reading everyone elses postings. Thanks for the article from Leerburg. I have some friends training their dogs with his DVDs and they like him alot. I wouldn't say GSD are that different from Dobies though. According to the research I did into the Dobie the GSD was used heavily (European shepherd) in the breeds developement.
The article has a great point about treat training being more forgiving. I'm not a big fan of treat training for basic commands but once you start punishing the dog it has to be perfect timing, as he said, or you ruin the relationship. I want my dog to trust me, not be afraid of being corrected for things she doesn't understand. I have found my Doberman to be "different' than other breeds I've had basically because they are so emotional and highly perceptive. I've worked harder to keep my own emotions neutral while training her because she reacts so strongly to them.
A further note about emotions: Something so useful from our basic obedience classes was learning that dogs really feed off of human emotion. Our instructor, who has trained dogs for 40 years (more on the traditional side), told us this during one of the first classes. He said the first way to modify a behavior you don't like is to remove the reward. Sometimes, the reward for the dog is simply the emotional reaction from the owner. He told us about a student whose large dog would goose her in the fanny with his nose. Every time this woman would give a little shriek, jump up, and then hit the dog and yell at him. He continued to do it until she learned her little shriek and jumping around was an emotional reaction the dog found exciting--his reward! All she had to do to modify the behavior was stop reacting as it took the fun out of it for the dog. After learning that I've used positive emotion to motivate Jasmine and I think it's really worked. For instance, when she was first walking off lead on walks out in the country where I live I wanted to reinforce her looking back at me, keeping close, not running too far ahead. Every time she'd look back at me I'd clap, say "good girl" really enthusiastically, and sometimes jump or skip. yes, I felt stupid at times but she loved it and now is really good off lead to keep "checking" up on me as we walk and stay connected that way. She loves to run, full tilt(!), at certain places on the trail where it is grassy and flat and the interesting thing to me is that even though she is running up ahead of me usually, she waits for me to tell her "go-run-jump!" She could easily just take off but she seems to love seeing me get excited and give her that command(which is followed by me laughing and clapping). Kind of a new revelation for me, using positive emotion that way as a motivator.
Good luck with your dog; be sure to post some pics!
Hi! Yes, this forum seems great! Lots of good helpful information and nice people! You make a good point about the GSD and the Dobe. What I worry about most is exactly what you said, the sensitivity! They are so in-tuned to everything emotional. My last Dobe Moses, all I had to do was walk in the door and he knew exactly how to greet me! And any real corrections were far and few between because it seemed like he'd do what ever it took for me to be happy. Which is why I worry about over correcting, especially because I just don't know what type of corrections he's had. Probably no training and then very harsh corrections when he did get them. But I have to tell myself this is a new life for him, with new rules and new relationships and go from there, not worry about the past!
And thanks for sharing how you worked with her on the walk. After reading this post today I thought a lot about what everyone was saying about marking the right behavior before bad behavior takes place and how I could do that on our walk. I walk Ramses with my other Dobe mix Zoe, who is in basic training and has a pretty good engagement but is starting to get distracted in the heel. So, I put a whole bunch of treats in my pocket and we set out, every couple of feet I would call one of their names and when they looked at me gave them a treat and made a really big deal out of it. I started with Zoe because she already knows this game, Ramses caught on quickly once I started doing it with him. It worked really good and after a couple of minutes both of them were right at my side trying to see who I'd call next.... then I ran out of treats! After that I would stop and just call Ramses and wait for him to walk back next to me (he was on leash so I could kind of tug him as a little coaxing) before we continued. It worked OK but I bet it would of worked much better if I made a really really big deal about him coming back and walking right next to me, like you suggest. Even though we we've been having good walks tonight was "fun" - there wasn't moments of tension when I was correcting them. I'll try again tomorrow, using what you said with my emotions and see how it goes.
This week on vacation, which is why I've been able to spend so much time reading and posting questions. Next week I go back to work and with the kids and the dogs it's hard to find time for much else but I definitely plan on trying to check in here as much as I can as well as spend more time on the Leerburg site. Tomorrow is going to be bath day so I'll take some pictures of Ramses and post them, along with the rest of the gang!
I only had 2 dobies both so different one female a dream dog then a male a love sponge..
When you mentioned the dobe is different that they are emotional dogs.. you hit it on the head i never put words to it. Dobe will work off of "good girl" a little sillyness in my dog praising voice.. my last dogs have been poodles and they are very much like that.. my little toy male does not like me to be upset with him.. I think you can get a lot with praise with a dobe.. also you mentioned trust.. that is so important with any dog...
the Doberman is a different dog.. I think more of a heart dog.. A germam shepard will be a loyal dog and think and go into a fire after you.. a Doberman will just go get his human no thinking wasting time.. both loyal dogs but the Dobe is a heart dog..
I get my rescue girl dobe next month.. I cant wait..she is in her middle years no wild child for this 71 year old gal.. I will miss that wild child but I cant phyiscaly do it.. but I enjoy looking at all the younger ones on this group..
Savannah welcome to this group of caring passionate Dobe lovers whether a dobe mix.. young old rescue or show dog.. we love them all
Hugs
Bet
I love the leerburg & michael ellis stuff, great, great videos & info. The one thing I want to point out is that they are very involved in working sports, and usually working with gsd's & mals. The one thing that I would comment is that alot of their stuff is focused on working dogs, (not all of it is) so just make sure you are aware of what you are reading/watching. But the info they have is top notch, love those guys.
Well, I'm on the other side of the fence. (Pun intended -lol!)
My dogs always ran the fence line with the horses for fun. They didn't go in, because I had a hot wire as well. The horses thought it was grand fun, and so did the dogs. If the horses didn't want to play, they just didn't come up to the fence. Sooner or later, they'd all get tired, and settle down with happy grins on their faces. To be fair - I live in the country, and the barking never bothered anyone.
But - to each his own! I really don't have a good suggestion - I wouldn't use a shock collar. Maybe someone else has some good ideas! Oh! How about one that sprays an unpleasant scent? I can't remember what they are called.....