SearchThe Forum's Thoughts on Cesar Millan's Ways?
As a future aspiring Doberman owner I've been doing extensive research into dog training, behavior, body language, and etc by sifting through articles, videos, books, and other resources.
As I was watching some videos on youtube I came across Cesar Millan's Dog Whisperer and I could not believe some of the episodes aired on TV! I mean Jesus, what is this man doing to those poor dogs? Choking them with collars, using shock collars, and forcibly rolling them on their backs when it's clear the dogs are in extreme fear? Putting them into situations of failure by kicking them out of no where for a response?
All it took was a Psychology 101 in college and research into dogs' body language to see that this man was negatively impacting most aggressive dogs.
All this man does in his cases of "Red Zone" dogs is flood them by putting them into overwhelming situations they're afraid of until he gets the behavior he wants, most of the time by force. Anyone who took basic psych can tell that these dogs are just shutting down in the face of his intimidation, bullying, and torture. He's just producing learned helplessness and people are just eating up all his bullshit! I can't believe it.
And upon doing more research I found that he has no credentials what so ever and yet he's working with that many aggressive dogs for rehabilitation? What the hell? Where is the uproar and protest against this man?
Better yet, why is his philosophy on dog training so popular? Anyone with a rational and scientific mind can research into his philosophy on dog training and quickly find that his theory on pack-leader, dominance/submission, and alpha male or female based on wolf packs has little to no validity on the modern dogs.
Being calm and assertive is fine but this man is just dictating, bullying, psychologicaly and even physically dominating the dogs, justified by his philosophy based on pure fabrication, outdated information, and pseudoscience.
I, for one, am disgusted by this man and even further disturbed by the number of people following after his methods.
Am I just crazy or what? Are there solid, scientific, studied, and varified reasons that I'm not catching here that makes his dog training is so revered, justified, and practiced by the masse?
What are your thoughts?
I never thought to much about his methods until I watched this link that was on facebook last week.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCGtatpCwI of course these clips just show the negative parts of his training and I was instantly in disagreement with his training.
I of course I continued to watch more clips of his training and I came across this one it has 3 parts to it so if you have the chance watch all 3. It is amazing how this dog was rehabilitated and his story of where he came from and where he is today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAoUZ7JbmdE&feature=related I have never trained nor would I want to train a dog like this but in this case Caesar puts it all together and what a difference in the dog. In fact I really give these people credit for the fact they kept at it and wanted to save the dog. I on the other hand would have probably put it to sleep, to much of a liability. This couple didn't have children so they were able to make it work. While I don't agree with a lot of his training this made me look at him in a different light.
Another thought to ponder is while I would never consider most of his methods for starting and training my obedience dogs or family pets, most of his clientele has problem dogs that need a different approach and changing very bad behaviors.
I also feel that for your average pet owner that is watching these miraculous changes in these dogs on tv (such as the link I included above) might think that this is the way to treat a dog from the start which of course most of know is wrong.
I have mixed feelings about Cesar. But you should do more research on him before judging him. Although I'm moving away from some of his methods, I feel like I try to parallel him more than anyone else. An old lady once told me all I need is a rolled-up newspaper. It's good to know dog owners in general have evolved (for the better I think). So far much of behavioral research on dogs is quite rare compared to say baboons and other wild animals. What little research that have been performed on dogs, much of it has not been replicated/tested but those attempts are in progress (finally).
Initially I was fairly shocked when I was introduced to Cesar's videos. But then I realized he is typically dealing with unusual or severe cases. According his stats, he mostly uses positive reinforcement. I'm thinking you're young like I am and was introduced to ideas like positive reinforcement and other feel good phrase-like training. Cesar wrote in one his books that he had to change the word discipline to correction because Americans gasped at the sound of discipline.
I agree that much of what he says is unfounded, but that is also true for many other types of trainers. However, I like the fact that he is open minded. I think that is rare.
It might be the case that Cesar's methods are more appropriate for the last chance dogs. I've seen positive reinforcement and softer approaches being applied to dogs that have attacked my puppy and other dogs. These dedicated owners usually do timeout and it doesn't appear to offer a permanent solution. In DC, two reported bites will result in the dog being put down.
What is your expirience with correcting and dealing with issues in full grown 'problem' dogs??? Just wondering what makes your think you're qualified to judge his training at all. Have you ever worked with an adult dog with serious issues?
Bringing home and training your 12 week old puppy is no where near the same as correcting a dog that's having behavorial issues at 3-4-5, etc. years old. The bottom line is, if the dog was trained to begin with you wouldn't need Cesar...you also see only the most severe cases on TV and only small parts of the entire process. His show is for ratings....not to learn how to train a dog.
Not every dog nor every breed learns the same way either..
Just my opinion, but I do still think domestic dogs retain the pack mentality. Consider that domestic dogs, left to their own devices, will form a pack that operates much like a wild wolf pack. A hierarchy is formed and the dogs function as a pack. Regardless of what you want to call it, your dog needs to know that you are the boss (pack leader/alpha) and that he/she is NOT running the show, you are. I have read many of Cesar's books and his everyday training methods are based on postitive reinforcement and establishing yourself as pack leader. No, I don't think his training methods are for every dog or every owner, but the man is not an idiot. Cesar tries to teach people how to communicate with their dogs in a language they will understand--dog language. Dog psychology is much different than human psychology and it's hardly beneficial to compare the two. It's like comparing apples to carrots. A red zone dog is dealt with MUCH differently than a puppy or well adjusted adult dog.
Have you ever checked out his website? Perhaps you should do some more research and REALLY learn what he is all about before making such harsh judgments.
Ahh, yes... undergrads.
Very well said, all of the above. I just might add that one thing that Cesar and Victoria Stillwell (only positive reinforcement) have in common is that THEY are in charge, not the dog. It's all in the attitude. And that message is gotten by the dogs. Cesar doesn't beat dogs, nor is his kick nothing more than a correction to snap the dog out of their mania. When you are leash training a puppy and they are pulling, you stop and turn around. It gets their attention on you. It's a correction.
One thing that the video that was posted was very very crucial. The dog needs to TRUST you and you need to get your dog to where you can trust them. If you can't, it's a lack of training. Cesar many times works with what he calls "Red Zone" dogs. Yes, it makes for good television, but in the end, they learn to trust him. Basically, it's a mutual respect club. I have put myself in harm's way to protect my dog, and she does the same for me. That comes from trust.
Like was mentioned, there are many philosophies of training. What may work with one dog may not work with another.
I have studied animal psychology... It is NOTHING like human psychology. I promise. If an animal does not trust you, he will not respect you. If he does not respect you, he will not listen and will revert to a feral or aggresive mentality.
Domestic dogs today do have a lot in common with wolves in terms of their familial needs. A domestic dog, if left to it's own devices without training and correction of unwanted behavior, will realize their pack mentality and will seek to become a part of a "pack". Thats why, when you go into places where dogs are running rampant and strays rule the streets, you will see that the dogs usually run in small groups and fight for their territory. They follow one male and one female, the "alphas" are the only dogs that mate, and all the dogs take care of the pups. Most dogs have a pack mentality that parallels with wild wolves.
Cesar is using "dog language" to return these dogs from a feral or aggressive mentality back to a natural pack mentality where their owner is the alpha, the children are "beta" and the dog is the "omega".
This natural pack mentality is what makes the dog the perfect family pet, they fit right into their place in the family almost without failure.
I just read his book, I did not find it particularly negative at all. He makes a lot of good points. Although I train Kaiser on the basis on NILIF. I still walked away taking pointers and using them. He really believes and exercising a lot so your dog so he is more relaxed. On this I agree, Kaiser is so much better when he has his longs walks x2 a day.
I also find sometimes I just have to be super tough, be the leader and all business forget the treats. He responds better when I am no nonsense. Jeshykai is correct not all methods work for all dogs. Also, lol my mother use to use a rolled up newspaper to. She had dogs all her life and at times more than one at once and they were always well behaved and loving. We had 9 kids to, so they were not short on affection.
Cesar has his success stories for a reason. Just putting in my two cents worth. If your are getting a doberman they are awesome. Kaiser is my first doberman and if they are all as stubborn as him good luck trying to be anything else but the Alpha and that yes that is pack mentality I'm talking about. (Cesar's way) Also, read Fogels book on the dogs mind interesting read.
I really enjoy the Cesar programs and have used some of his techniques on Cleo with great success. I don't agree with nor would I attempt all that he does - the alpha roll for one - but the guy understands and can read dogs really well. I believe you should pick and choose the training that works for you and your dog, trial and error.
I have had great success using his method on claiming the kitchen, Cleo was a nightmare pushing her nose into everything you were doing. I happened to see one of his programs about a similar problem and realised I was making the same mistake the owner was in that, although I made her leave the kitchen I didn't wait until she lay down outside the room, I did not wait long enough until she had lowered her head and relaxed. Three times of doing it properly and she now lies outside the kitchen door and won't come in until invited. She moans a bit but she doesn't venture into the kitchen, she either waits there, those soulful eyes pleading, or she goes off to her bed. The training involved no words or physical touch, it was just letting her know by my body language and eye contact what I expected and she got it almost immediately. I am doing this more and more in other areas with similar success, I can almost hear the 'oh so that's what you want me to do!' (To be honest she knew that already but chose to ignore it, now she knows I mean business). Its just like raising yours kids, they knew the 'look' that meant 'oh oh gone too far' !
So my advice would be don't knock it till you've tried it.
Sadist
Ironically you write discriminately about how Ceasar "tortures dogs" and your name is synonymous with the word torture. Just saying
The first video in the link posted by RnD does look bad, which is not surprising since the comments added to the video plainly indicate that the person who compiled the video has absolutely no use for Cesars methods. They point out that Cesar's kicks are aimed at the "unprotected abdominal area". Well, it is the softer area and prone to give less resistance to the "kick", but a couple of points about the kick.
One, it is a backward motion from the knee, not the hip. Note also that Cesar is always wearing soft shoes, not heavy boots. We all know the effect of a two finger slap on the nose of a young puppy, and use that to distract the puppy and get it's attention. It is impossible to hurt the puppy using just the two fingers. Mama when correcting a young puppy still in the den (or whelping box) uses her paw in a similar manner.
The backward kick administered in the manner Cesar will not hurt the dog. It will distract the dog and that is what he is after. If he kicked in the "protected" rib cage, even done that way, it could crack or even break a rib. (Note: that method will not work with most Dobes, Great Danes, and other long legged dogs as they are too tall). A forward kick with the front of the foot can possible cause harm to the dog as the swing action from the hip has more force.
I dare say that Cesar had saved more troubled dogs than all of his detractors combined. The only other place that has saved more troubled dogs is Dog Town. They do not utilize the kick, but they are also in a protected environment whereas the dogs that Cesar works with are in a home enviornment. He works with the dog on it's home territory.
There are many techniques that Cesar uses once the dog is settled down that we can use as well. Some that I use are blocking, the stare and the "tst tst tst" sound. When Princess was a puppy, she would not leave the pad to go to her crate. So, I got a leash off the door knob and using the leash took her to the crate. Today, if she pulls that stunt, all I have to do is pick up the leash and she goes right in. Sometimes all it takes is me to put my hand on the door knob.
I also disagree with a statement by the detractors at the end of the video that dogs are domesticated animals, not wolves. Well, we all know the thin veneer of civilization peels off of some humans at times, and the same thin veneer of domestication peels off of some of our canine friends. Then they are worse than wolves. They do revert to packs, but unlike the wild wolf, have no fear of humans and are thus more dangerous if they have been feral too long. If we study the nature of the wolf and not man, we will understand our canine friend. For although they are descended from a long line of failed wolves (as I like to remind Princess and Jake) they still have the same behavior. Hence the Alpha and Omega postions and the circleing the spot where they are going to lay among many.
I hope that some take the time to watch the next link I sent that show the entire process and how it helped a Pitbull that was destined for death if not for Cesers intervention and training methods. Totally a fan after that one.
-"It might be the case that Cesar's methods are more appropriate for the last chance dogs. I've seen positive reinforcement and softer approaches being applied to dogs that have attacked my puppy and other dogs. These dedicated owners usually do timeout and it doesn't appear to offer a permanent solution. In DC, two reported bites will result in the dog being put down."
The concepts of "pack" and "dominance" originated in the 1940s and were later popularized by the Monks of New Skete in the 1970's. The theory states that "dogs are wolves" essentially because they come from the same species and since wolves live in hierarchical packs where an alpha male rules over everyone else, then humans must dominate dogs in order to modify their behavior.
Recent studies have shown that wolves in the wild actually live in nuclear families where the father and mother are considered the pack leaders, and their offspring’s' status depends on their birth order which does not involve fighting to attain a higher rank, because the young wolves naturally follow their parents' lead.
Animal behaviorists assert that using dominance to modify a behavior can suppress a dog's aggression without addressing the underlying cause of the problem. This can exacerbate the problem and increase their fear, anxiety, and aggression. Often, pets who are subjected to repeated threats may react with aggression not because they are trying to be dominant, but because they feel threatened and afraid.
sources: http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die
http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2007250,00.html
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf
-"Just my opinion, but I do still think domestic dogs retain the pack mentality. Consider that domestic dogs, left to their own devices, will form a pack that operates much like a wild wolf pack. A hierarchy is formed and the dogs function as a pack. Regardless of what you want to call it, your dog needs to know that you are the boss (pack leader/alpha) and that he/she is NOT running the show, you are. I have read many of Cesar's books and his everyday training methods are based on postitive reinforcement and establishing yourself as pack leader. No, I don't think his training methods are for every dog or every owner, but the man is not an idiot. Cesar tries to teach people how to communicate with their dogs in a language they will understand--dog language. Dog psychology is much different than human psychology and it's hardly beneficial to compare the two. It's like comparing apples to carrots. A red zone dog is dealt with MUCH differently than a puppy or well adjusted adult dog.
Have you ever checked out his website? Perhaps you should do some more research and REALLY learn what he is all about before making such harsh judgments."
I think it's you who didn't do your research. All of the things you said about pack, dogs functioning like wolf pack, and the whole dominance/alpha thing is a myth.
Dominance and submission are often mistaken to be part of normal social behaviors for dogs. They are not. Wild canines form packs specifically for the purpose of hunting large prey. Evolutionary biologist Raymond Coppinger has noted that wolves that live near garbage dumps, and therefore don't need to hunt large prey, don't form packs. He also states that coyotes, which are more solitary than wolves, sometimes form packs, but only when they need to hunt large prey. In Dog Language, biologist Roger Abrantes notes that it's easier for a group of wolves to hunt large prey by working together. So pack formation in canines seems to be a function of prey size more than dominance and submission.
The idea that dogs exhibit dominant and submissive behaviors is based partly on behaviors seen in captive wolves that were culled from various sources, didn't know one another, and weren't able to hunt together. David Mech of the University of Minnesota has been studying wild wolf packs since the 1960s. Mech states that in wild packs "dominance" displays are so rare as to be totally nonexistent. The only time they seem to take place is when a conflict emerges between the pack parents over how to disperse food to the young. The female invariably wins these encounters by acting as "non-threatening" (or submissive) as possible. Rudolph Schenkel was the first biologist to ask the question, if the "submissive" wolf always wins, who’s really dominant? Also, since "dominance aggression" in dogs can be treated with anti-anxietal medications, it's more likely that this behavior is an expression of stress or anxiety, and is not a natural part of the canine social instincts. (Mech (1999) asserted that the significance of dominance relationships within pack society has been overrated, and he argued that wolf packs are best understood as family groups in which a breeding pair “shares leadership in a division of labor system in which the breeding female initiates pup care and the breeding male leads in foraging and food provisioning”.
source: INTRODUCTION: “Leadership behavior in relation to dominance and reproductive status in gray wolves, Canis lupus,” Rolf O. Peterson, Amy K. Jacobs, Thomas D. Drummer, L. David Mech, and Douglas W. Smith, Canadian Journal of Zoology, Vol. 80, 2002, p. 1406)
-"Domestic dogs today do have a lot in common with wolves in terms of their familial needs. A domestic dog, if left to it's own devices without training and correction of unwanted behavior, will realize their pack mentality and will seek to become a part of a "pack". Thats why, when you go into places where dogs are running rampant and strays rule the streets, you will see that the dogs usually run in small groups and fight for their territory. They follow one male and one female, the "alphas" are the only dogs that mate, and all the dogs take care of the pups. Most dogs have a pack mentality that parallels with wild wolves.
Cesar is using "dog language" to return these dogs from a feral or aggressive mentality back to a natural pack mentality where their owner is the alpha, the children are "beta" and the dog is the "omega"."
The social unit of dogs is the pack. From research on wolf packs that are formed in captivity, the pack has traditionally been thought of as a tightly knit group composed of individuals that have earned a ranking in a linear hierarchy, and within which there is intense loyalty. It is believed that dogs were able to be domesticated by and succeed in contact with human society because of their social nature. According to this traditional belief, dogs generalize their social instincts to include humans, in essence "joining the pack" of their owner/handler. However, much of this traditional view is based on findings from grey wolf packs that are formed of unrelated animals in captivity, and thus may not apply to natural wolf packs, natural dog packs, or dogs incorporated into a human household. Research in packs formed in the wild indicates that wolves form a family group, including a breeding pair and their offspring. In these familial packs, the terms "dominance," and "submission" are less useful than "parent," and "offspring," and bring with them a number of misconceptions. While the majority of research to date indicates that domestic dogs conform to a hierarchy around an Alpha-Beta-Omega structure, domestic dogs, like their wild wolf counterparts, also interact in complex hierarchical ways.
sources: http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/applan/article/S0168-1591%2802%2900121-1/abstract
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347204003392
Care to site your sources people? Dogs AND wolves do not have a drive to needlessly join a pack. They only form packs to reach a certain goal such as hunting. Again, disproved, as study shows canines living in an area with an easily accessible food source do NOT form packs.
I would love for any of you to site your sources to support your claims about your theories on wolf pack, dominance/submission, and pack theory in dogs. And they better be credible sources rofl, not from Ceasar or outdated research based on captivated wolves 5 decades ago.
Oh, also, even the person who came up with "alpha" wolf discredits his own statement after further research. If you don't even know who this person is (who formed the whole alpha/dominance theory based on wolf packs) then don't even bother.
Sadist, what's wrong with you?
LOL @ Happydance! (I was wondering the same thing)
Anyone notice the collective eye roll here?? 
Excellent work on your Google, cut and paste ability!!! I see the Pysch 101 and college have taught you a lot of valuable information. Maybe years from now when you actually get a dog and train it you can come back and tell us how your extensivily researched theory worked...:)
until then, we will treat you like the typical troll.....
Nice research, but it's not earth shattering. I also would have never been allowed to cite "Time magazine" in school but I digress. Unfortunately, these studies have not gone through an extensive replication process. If you notice, scientific research on dog behavior is at an infancy. Even if there is some major Nobel worthy breakthrough, such as reading a dog's mind, we will never truly know the motivation for much of their actions. Some are simply better educated guesses than other assumptions, such as he is whining while I'm prepping his food because he is dying to eat. A more complex case is why does that rottweiler selectively attack dogs (my story earlier).
My reasoning for going away from Cesar's methods has to do with less science, but simply following my own intuition and that is, let's explore softer approaches to obtain the desirable behavior rather than having to resort to tougher measures. I could summarize by people use specific types of dog training based on how it makes them feel (they really don't know 100% how their dogs feel). Let's assume Cesar's methods are scientifically proven to be correct. Are you willing to use dominance-oriented training? Something to ponder if positive reinforcement is proven to be a waste of time and worse, cause obesity.
I hope you achieve much success if you ever get a dobie. They are highly capable and trainable dogs. I wouldn't brush off a lot of experienced owners who offer valuable insights here. They make a good point about there isn't one type of training style that encompass every dogs' issues. The owners here are typically constructive and respectful unlike the typical user abuse behind a laptop. If you felt some of their responses were hostile, you sort of set yourself up with the psych 101 comment. You came off like an elitist know-it-all newly minted undergrad (I was there myself several years ago). Who cares if Cesar doesn't have a degree. I think his story is an amazing testament of an immigrant who came to the U.S. and worked his butt off in pursuit of rehabilitating our four-legged friends.
ehh... arguing about a TV show?
LOL and AGREED @ Happydance and D and Evie! My thoughts exactly. Did ya ever notice how some people just like to start drama? Hahahahahahahaha!!
Funny - the innate desire to be right, no matter what it takes. I have so many other things I can do with my day than pick a fight over an opinion that I asked for.
Couldn't bring myself to read the whole post with all the """"s not enought time in the world blah blah blah 
Totally agree, just one big yawn !
Oh my word!! I think prehaps a lap dog would better suite you sadist. A doberman is probably too much dog for you. If you don't agree with dominance and "Alphaism" (my word) you should refrain from this majestic, intelligent, I am smarter than you breed.
Bye,
Mary and Kaiser the Great
And btw I don't know who wrote this but something you should know about dobermans
Doberman property laws:
If I like it it's mine
If it's in my mouth it's mine
If I can take it from you, it's mine
If I saw it first it's mine
If it looks like mine, it's mine
If it was yours and you put it down, it's now mine
If I chew something up, all the pieces are mine
If it's edible it's always mine
If it used to be yours, get over it!
If it's broken or ruined, now it's yours :)
Cesar is using techniques that the aggressive dogs require as clicker training doesn't always work (insert **Gasp** here)... Extreme cases call for extreme measures.
I've had a trainer who preached nothing but positive reinforcement. She had all the credentials you could ever want in a teacher but her ways were weird. You couldn't even say "No" or anything negative to a dog. I saw first hand how positive only worked with an aggressive dog that was in our class. He (the dog) bit her at least 6 times before he was put down...
Cesar is trying to prevent that.
Drake started to get into a habit of dominating anyone who visited. He would bring them ropes, bully sticks, etc and pushed them into holding them/play with him on command, which one visitor did 100% of the time. It got bad enough that Drake would growl, bark, and grab/bite his shirt or pants when he wouldn't play. He also would growl and bark at him when he was eating as to tell him "give it to me". Shortly after all this started I started to tell Drake to stop, I stood over him, and starred at him until he looked away. He got the message. It happened one other time and after I yelled at him to stop, it never happened again. I guess you could call me cruel/abusive for not cuddling him if you'd like.
I think a large problem people have with Cesar's show is they forget their dog is a dog. Dogs weren't put on this earth to be our equals or else they would speak our language and never steal our socks.
from yohoe: ...Dogs weren't put on this earth to be our equals or else they would speak our language and never steal our socks.
Hahahaha!!!! Love it!
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I really started out framing a reply to you, then I thought I better not. You may not realize it, but you come off like you "know it all" about dog training in this post because you've done some reading and research. Have you taken classes - not human psychology - or worked with dogs? What is your history in dog training and dog behavior?
I'm not entirely sure why you decided to rip into a training method on the forum. Not one method works for every dog, nor every person, nor does everyone want to use them. It's there. You learn from what they're doing and you decide if you want to apply it or not. Stamping your foot and crying "idiot" and "foul"... doesn't change anything.