SearchUgh... training roadblocks
Hi everyone, this is partly "any suggestions welcome" and partly just a rant do to training frustrations! I posted about three weeks ago about my rescue dobe Ramses and everyone was very helpful and supportive. I followed the suggestions to check out leerburg.com, and go some great information about groundwork and dominant dogs, marker training, just a lot of good stuff, and I've been trying to put it into practice. I'm definitely thought I was seeing a change in Ramses, but I'm starting to second guess myself and at the same time running into problems that I didn't have before!
I guess my biggest frustration is just his stubbornness and for lack of a better way to say this - no connection/bonding. My logical/rational side tells me that I'm being ridiculous but my emotional side is just really frustrated!! Basically it is REALLY HARD to get him to focus on me! Treats, no treats, play, toys, in the middle of no-where, etc.! We've been walking at night to have less distractions, and if we have dogs or people walk by I load him up on treats, which gets him to focus on me just long enough to walk by distractions, but honestly, he really doesn't care about them either, he's just happy to be on a walk, sniffing and prancing away! he never barks and any one or get aggressive, nothing. And when we try to train, some times he pays attention, some times he could care less. I'm not trying to do anything big here - just a sit would be nice, and not even a reliable sit! I'd seriously be happy if I could get him to do it 50% of the time!! he knows it - before he gets out of his crate he sits like a little angle because he knows he won't come out if not, the same for his food. But tonight I had to stand at the door for 10 minutes before I could get him to sit to come in the house - he waits to be called in, just refuses to sit!! And I cheated by basically forcing him into a sit where he barely but his but down just so I could tell myself that I got him to do what I wanted before going into the house!!!
I know it's only been a short while and I have no idea what his past experience is with people. I also know that a lot of dobes and dogs in general take a long time to trust. But some days it honestly feels like he could really careless about people or anything we have to offer him. I really wonder what his past relationships were like because he seems really socialized, kids, people, bikes, other dogs, cats, horses, sheep, you name it, he is no phased! It is just frustrating!
The other thing he is doing that is driving me crazy is marking in his crate!! He has a wire crate so basically the pee goes everywhere. This is not because he has to go to the bathroom. It is always triggered by something he doesn't like. Another dog lose in the house, to much commotion, etc. I don't let him mark (or try not too) while we walk so he's learning that I say where and when, and yell "NO" and let him know I am not happy about him marking but he's still doing it! And I'm just not sure what to do about it - I can't put him outside, or get rid of what he doesn't like just because he doesn't like it. UGH! Today I went to price normal plastic crates, because I know if had to sit in the pee he wouldn't do it. But they have to be special ordered and would take a least a week to come, besides the fact that they are ridiculously expensive! I don't remember them being so expensive - like $250 for the "cheap" ones. But any suggestions in the meantime would be great!
Thanks for listening to my rant! I know it's just time and patience but it is still just frustrating! And sharing my experiences - both good and bad, helps!
How long have you had him? He really needs some time to just become a part of your family - you need to ease up on what you expect from him right away. It can take months for a dog to bond with their new family.
As far as peeing in or out of his crate, this is something that you need to catch him doing for the "NO" to mean anything. He could look as guilty for it as you want, but he does not understand why you are mad unless to can immediately connect the behavior with the correction.
You could try finding a used crate on ebay or craigs list - just be sure to disinfect it good with bleach inside and out before bringing it into your home.
Ramses is an adult rescue doberman that you've had, what, 3 weeks now? Like Fitzmar said, he needs more time to adjust to his new life and new expectations.
Baby steps will get you better results in the long run than trying to insist on getting perfect obedience from him right now. Even though he's older, you should treat him like he's a little puppy when training him. Realize that his attention span is the size of a gnat, and work with him in very short sessions, but do even a 2 minute session with him maybe a dozen different times or more per day. Repetition is how they learn most things.
When you give the sit command to him and he complies, BRAG HIM UP--let him know he's the smartest dog in the world, give him lots of pats or head scratches or whatever it takes to get the message across to him. On the other hand, if you tell him to sit, and he just looks at you---for now, anyway, turn your back on him. Ignore him for a minute or so. He will put two and two together (dobermans are smart that way) and will figure out that sitting when told is a GOOD thing, not sitting is not so good.
Hone in on things he does that you like, and let him know it pleases you. Telling him over and over to sit, or waiting for 10 minutes for him to finally do it isnt going to accomplish much except to frustrate you and Ramses both.
I know poor Ramses! His life has literally been turned upside down and I'm expecting perfection and compliance before he's even had a chance to process anything. I know this, and I know I was being absolutely ridiculous in my post. What it should have said is - wow this has been a really hard week for me personally and poor Ramses is getting the worst of it.
However, he had just peed in his crate while looking right at me, and only 20 minutes after being outside. It was a definite dominance marking. But, I knew this wasn't going to be easy when I agreed to take him in so I can't just whine and complain when things aren't perfect - especially when it's pretty much my fault. But, THANK YOU all for providing a forum where I could have a "fit" without it affecting the dog or the kids - they don't read!!
So here is the more constructive me, I'll try to be as detailed as I can about what I'm doing, what's going on so that you can have a clear picture. I want to get this right, he deserves it, so all suggestions/advice on how I should do things differently is more than welcomed:
1. Peeing: he's only doing it, I figured out today, when things get emotionally charged in the house. That occurred to me today after reading your responses. I am catching him in the act and reprimanding him with a very firm NO (or several no's) and a dominant position over his crate, he normally reacts by going into a down and putting his ears back, head down in a submissive position - kind of like saying "oops, sorry, I hear you". But he continues to do it. He's only had two accidents in the crate during the day when we're not home in the two weeks he's been in the crate. But since Saturday he's marked it probably 5 times, with us being here and after being out!!. The only thing that has been the same in the 5 times has been the emotional level of the house. Emotion at both ends - positive emotions (think supper happy kids running, screaming and playing) and negative emotions (the opposite, crying kids, frustrated parents, you know the average household with toddlers!!). Or, after eating. Two dogs eat outside, Ramses in his crate, and Zoe in the house, but not in a crate.
One other note here - we have a kitten, who before used to hide from Ramses because she didn't realize that he can't get out of the crate. However, she has since figured it out and I have a feeling she's been "teasing" him by running around the crate in the day when we're gone. I'm thinking that might be a factor so some of the changes in crate behaviors??? I'm thinking I might put her in the laundry room tomorrow so she's not running around the house...
2. Sit/focus/training. So biggest question here is when to start corrections for not obeying an order. When I learned to train, it was - give the command, "manipulate" the dog into the position, and then praise. You never repeated a command, especially once the dog "knew" it. But that did mean corrections, even hard corrections soon into training sessions. Zoe is a soft dog and honestly I ruined her down by following the advice of our trainer to give her a extremely hard correction when she didn't go down as soon as I asked her. Lots of missing details here but basically I ended up re-teaching the down using marker training, which I still just learning myself, but it's really worked. Anyway - another story. However, I think I'm gun shy now to correct to hard before i know he knows what I'm asking him do to.
Yesterday, I have to admit there was a couple of minutes there where I was just so tired and overwhelmed (I should NOT have been working with him feeling like that) that I just stood there looking at him "wishing" he would just sit down so we could go in the house. It was probably 10:30 at night. And my neighbors who were walking by probably thought I was crazy!! It makes me laugh just to think about me starring at him trying him to get him to read my mind!
Anyway I did try turning my back on him, closing the door and leaving him there for a minute and then coming back, walking into him to sort of back him up into a sit, pulling up on his collar, getting really excited with the treats to engage him and then get him to offer me the sit for more treats, walking away with him and them coming back to the door, pretty much anything and everything I could think of (including telepathy lol), in various orders and various times. In this situation should I have just forced/hard correction the sit from the second time he didn't offer it to me? or Did I make a mistake in asking him for it too soon in the training processes, and having realized I made a mistake, let him not do what I asked him to do?
I need to figure out how I can have more very brief training sessions, instead of just one at night. Thanks for pointing out that he doesn't have the attention span for that yet. I see him big but he really is a puppy in the training process, I need to write that down and put it on my fridge. I would never get the frustrated with a puppy! I also need to figure out how to get him more exercise. That is also part of the problem. I was letting him romp with the other dogs for 30 minutes or so, which as great exercise for him, and he really loved it - always behaving very good. But per the leerburg ground work program, he shouldn't have contact with other dogs yet, especially off leash, so now his only real exercise is the nightly walk - it long but it's not enough. What are you thoughts about letting him play with the other dogs to burn off energy.
OK - I have a lot to think about and a lot more questions. This would have been a much better first post but hey, at least I got to really think about what was going on. Again, thank you everyone for being a sounding board for my training. I REALLY APPRECIATE ALL OF THE ADVICE AND SUGGESTIONS YOU'VE GIVEN ME AND WILL PUT THEM INTO PRACTICE.
Like I said my trainer is a little old school. They are actually starting to move into marker training, we started last week! But it's a learning curve for all of us. Plus, everyone who has come to my house over the past weeks thinks I'm crazy for having a dog in the crate!! They think it's because I'm mean or he's vicious!! It's hard to find people who can give constructive advice! So again - thanks!!
I still think you are expecting too much too soon. And if your trainer is not more about positive rewards, I'd think about trying someone else. Just a thought.
Is he neutered? The peeing might be marking, but since you say that he is doing it when the house is in turmoil, I suspect it might be submissive peeing when he is uncomforable. Might be a good reason to work on a calmer house. I have 2 teenagers so I know the home can get crazy at times. The other thing you might want to consider if finding a quieter spot for his crate where there is less going on.
Pet Profiles
When he doesn't sit, when you are at the door, waiting for 10 minutes, what exactly do you do?