PICKING A SHOCK COLLAR

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VADER16's picture
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We have a 15 week old wz puppy named Vader, that were trying to correct some issues were having. We also have a 4yr old son thats probably at the same maturity. Thus were some of the issues come about. Vader loves to run full blast across the yard an tackle him, an procede to bit him all over. And Vader also gets aggressive when his chewing on a rawhide bone. Im looking for a collar that shocks which im hoping to only have to do a couple times then have a vibrate and sound to help with other minor issues. Im wondering if anyone has had luck with a certian collar for such issues. Although i want one that will shock him enough to stop him i also dont want him to stop playing with my son altogather. Ive read some of the fourms and im open to other thoughts. Becouse they are best buds and dont want vader to completely advoid him or get more aggressive.

AresMyDobie's picture
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He's way to young for an e collar and before ever putting one on any dog you should be properly trained on how to correctly use one. Before I ever put and e collar on my dog they are introduced to the prong collar first at around 6 months of age. 

In my opinion I feel there is a bit of a lack of training and not clear rules and boundaries. 

I would find a good trainer and get started and stay consistent. Then you can introduce other tools once you know how to use them. I don't like pos only training FYI. Although it can work for some dogs, it would never work with mine. 

I would also start teaching the four year old how to properly be around the puppy. I wouldn't allow them to roughly play, I would keep all play to a toy. 

What type of training is your puppy in ?

VADER16's picture
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His in no training at the moment. I thought about the one petco. My wife knows of one she had taken a dog the was aggressive to, but vader has been doing well towards people an dogs the more we expose him. When there out side he flat out ignores all commands when his zoned in. while i know his young he knows to sit, and he will sit an stay before we put his food down. Vader doesnt understand his size and the harmless play 5 weeks ago are were he can do damage now. But his rawhid bone is another thing. he was chewing on it on a couch which isnt were me an my wife usually sit, an most the time his right up on us or near us. So i decided to go over to him, he started growling. my wife said immediately take it away from him. And while i was telling her we have to teach him and i was patting him telling him it was ok, he bit me a couple times hard. So ill do more research in to trainer in my area. And crate him while he has his bones bc i know his teeth are coming in.  

Would not even consider a shock collar for a puppy!  Petco classes would be better than nothing, but certainly not ideal. See if you can find a training club in your area that has multiple classes. I usually take a puppy through more than one class - some places have puppy manners classes - they really teach you how to teach your dog, but having other dogs around is great for learning to listen with distractions. Then move on to beginner obedience by around 6 months. I really recommend continuing obedience classes well past the beginner class. You can usually ask your vet for a recommendation to a training facility.

Being reactive with high value treats is something you need to work on. It may be that he can only have them while in his crate. One thing I always do with puppies is to sit on the ground while they eat and take food out of their bowl, then put it back in. I keep doing this so that they learn that while I may take away food, I ALWAYS give it back. When my kids were young, they used to do this as well. My dogs have never been food reactive. 

I will also tell you that rawhide is not a good thing for your dog to have. strong chewers like Dobermans tend to swallow big hunks of it and can obstruct on it. I buy large beef leg bones, dig out most of the marrow (too rich) - they get them outside or in their crate. I buy bones that are at least 5" long. They get them raw. For a natural chewy, I get the bully sticks. They can digest those.

VADER16's picture
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I didnt think about it before but his aggression was with a braided bully sticks, becouse we have smaller rawhides which he didnt show any aggression with. But we would take them away when they got to small so he wouldnt swallow them. I did give him the bully stick in his cage, which he did well with no growling or anything. He doesnt have any food aggression. My concern was with all the horror storys with wz dogs. an just wanted to nip that in the but before it got out of hand. We may just be going threw teething/testing boundaries phase. We hadnt really had him out among other dogs with the fear of parvo.

At 15 weeks, he should have a couple of puppy shots in him. Most classes will require a copy of their shots.  Just as a warning, if he has not yet had his rabies shot.... do not give it at the same time as any other shot. Put a couple of weeks (at least) between the rabies shot and any other shot. I personally recommend at least a month. Even though my state requires rabies at 16 weeks, I don't do it till 6 months. Some training places are ok with you doing the rabies later - they know that rabies is a really harsh vaccine that should be done later when dogs start to get more immune protection within their own body. Dobermans are known to have immune issues. Just an FYI - this is my protocal and all of my puppy families abide by it. If their vet gives them grief, i tell them to either have the vet call me, or find a vet that is willing to work with them.

 

VADER16's picture
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Joined: 2017-01-09

Wish i would of known that before, he got his Da2lpp an rabies at the same time two weeks ago. Id like to thank Fitzmar and Ares for all advise.

Wolfgirl_121's picture
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I couldn't help but note that you said you were petting him and telling him it was okay while he was showing aggression over the bully stick. Petting him like this is not only exasperating the situation, but you're also telling him that his behaviour is okay. Dogs don't understand this as a comforting action. They understand petting as praise for what they are doing. When he begins to aggressively guard ANYTHING, use your voice. Use a firm "No" and IMMEDIATELY take away the item that he is being aggressive with. He NEEDS to understand that the behaviour is NOT okay. 

 

Yes, you are a new dog owner and no one expects you to do everything perfectly, but this is an immediate issue. Yes, he tackles your son in the yard because he doesn't understand his boundaries, but you should be more worried about the aggression than the rough play. If your son were to try and touch his things and if he were bitten the way that Vader bit you, he would suffer a LOT more damage than you. Now, imagine this scenario in a year or two. You NEED to work on the resource guarding. Bring it up with your trainer. They can give you tips and tricks to help you nip it in the bud before his hard puppy bites become dangerous dog bites. 

VADER16's picture
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Yes wolfgirl your completely right, as i was typing it out i knew that i had did it wrong. Last night we had company, after they patted an got aquanted. Other then being rambunctious he was great. an i offered his bully stick in front of his crate he went in an waited. Five minutes later he wanted out and he had no problems with me taking it out an putting it up. My 18yr nephew an his cousin stopped by to see my son an play with him so they went out side. so i let vader out while they were playing but that soon ended, i had to hold vader while they played after he tackled him. Im still looking for a trainer near me that seems like a good fit. while ive had large dogs in the past that wasnt a doberman, ive found Vader the most stubbern and hard headed which might be due to my son. Everynight i try to do some type of training even if its just sit,laydown, up. Lastnight after our guest left i worked with him on staying back from the door an not trying to run out. Which he did great, thats were he accels, its after the training is were he gets stubbern. The reason i started a post was to find a shock collar or a solution.  

DJ's Dad's picture
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You've already received excellent advice from members here on several subjects.  About your original question, I agree that he is too young for an e-collar right now.  Also, before you decide to use one at a later time, be sure to do some research on the use of e-collars and what kind you buy.  Your dog should already know basic commands (sit, stay, down) before ever using an e-collar.  I have one that I used for fine tuning some training with my dog DJ, and it's a Dogtra brand collar that has about 100 settings on it, from literally no feeling at all to what I consider 'too extreme to use'.  The highest setting I ever had to use was at 18, and I eventually moved it back to a vibrate only setting. I only had to train with that collar for maybe 2 1/2 to 3 weeks, and I dont even use it now.  You also have to learn how to use the controler before you start shocking your dog.  E-collars are meant to be a training tool, not a punishment for bad behavior. Training is a necessary thing with young dobermans...every day is a training session in one thing or another.  Good luck finding a good trainer or class situation for yourself and your pup. Cant say enough good things about training.

 

Karszes's picture
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My Dobie is 22 months old. She has been to puppy and intermediate classes. Basically she is really good. Her 2 issues are the leash and pulling, still working on that, better, she comes, sits and gets rewarded, issue, distractions. She forgets all, but will come back after she realizes she was wrong. I am thinking of a training collar. We live near the beach and so many folks use and love them. Would this be ok for her?

DobermanGuy's picture
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 Just as a warning, if he has not yet had his rabies shot.... do not give it at the same time as any other shot. Put a couple of weeks (at least) between the rabies shot and any other shot. I personally recommend at least a month. Even though my state requires rabies at 16 weeks, I don't do it till 6 months. Some training places are ok with you doing the rabies later - they know that rabies is a really harsh vaccine that should be done later when dogs start to get more immune protection within their own body.

Never heard any of this nonsense before. Anywhere...

Not from any Vet at any time ever and not from any Doberman breeder either...

The one 'extra' Parvo shot thing I have heard a few times as Dobermans are slightly more susceptible to that than many other breeds but a 'warning' to not give the rabies shot with any other puppy shots is a new one.

If you can link me to any studies that show a likely issue here I would be appreciative and welcome the education. (not sarcasm - I seriously want to learn if this is an issue or just junk I am reading on the internet)

FWIW - My current girls came from a breeder that is a long time Doberman owner AND is also a licensed Vet with her own practice. She has been doing this a while now... She had no issues or reservations at all about doing our last set of puppy shots along with the rabies shots at the same time and on the same visit. I experienced NO adverse reactions of any kind with either of the girls I had vaccinated at the time.

My last pair also came from a breeder that was a long time Doberman owner AND a licensed Vet. That guy had 40 years of experience with Dobermans and a little over 30 years as a Vet with his own practice. Zero issues giving both vaccinations to both girls at the same time with that pair as well and no 'warnings' from him about how I needed to wait a while...

What I have found in my experience is that Vets tend to spend more time learning about the things they care most about and the things that they see the most. A Vet that never or rarely sees 'Iguanas' for example is not likely to go out of his way to try and learn about Iguanas.

 

 

 

DobermanGuy's picture
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Are you talking about a pinch collar or a shock collar?

 

I have no use for shock collars and would not suggest those to anyone that I cared for (or their dog).

Pinch collars and leashes - That is a different story.

glengate's picture
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glengate's picture
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BTW, I'm also one of those breeders who has heard of separating vaccines and practices it, and has for some time.  It's been common practice amongst serious breeders for quite a while. 

Nice how it's nonsense in the first paragraph but then you seriously want to learn about it? 

 

Not too many vets will admit that not spacing out vaccines can cause rare, but serious issues. The average pet owner is not willing to space out vaccines since it means more visits. 

even the article below only touches on it - Weim breeders are well aware of this issue and is where I got most of my info. I had a bitch puppy almost die of HOD - there was no history in her pedigree and the only thing that possibly could have triggered it was a 5 way combo and a rabies given within a week of each other.  I no longer do a 5 way(I don't do Lepto at all) - and I make sure that rabies is always done a month from any other vaccine. Never had a repeat occurance from any of the puppies she whelped or her grandkids. 

https://www.vetinfo.com/dencyclopedia/dehod.html

 

DobermanGuy's picture
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BTW, I'm also one of those breeders who has heard of separating vaccines and practices it, and has for some time.  It's been common practice amongst serious breeders for quite a while. 

Nice how it's nonsense in the first paragraph but then you seriously want to learn about it? 

 

This discussion is about mixing rabies shots with other vaccines - and if that is a bad idea or not.

Does a rabies shot with another vaccine somehow make it more likely that a dog will have an adverse reaction to one or the other because they were done together at the same time?

The way I see things here - About all you really gain by separating all of the individual vaccines and giving them separately is that you make it more easy to determine exactly which vaccine was administered before an adverse reaction occured. I am not seeing where mixing them is more likely to cause issues in a dog that was not going to have issues with them anyway if they were given one at a time.

I still have a lot of reading to do at the FDA website but so far I am not seeing any warnings there that lead me to believe that an otherwise healthy Doberman would be at an increased risk from mixing the rabies vaccine along with something else.

If you are breeding dogs that are healthy to begin with - Why are they having adverse reactions to FDA approved and commonly administered vaccines that have been around for a very long time?   

 

 

I'm truly getting to the point in life that I don't know why I and other experienced people bother to share knowledge and experience.  I have come to understand why many other long time reputable breeders refuse to bother with on line forums. 

Just because most dogs can have a sh*t load of shots all at the same time with seemingly no issues, does not mean that we should continue to do it. It also does not mean that long term issues don't happen to those dogs either - there is just no direct link that can prove that immune issues were caused by excessive vaccinations.

Some breeds have known immune issues and cannot handle certain medications or vaccinations - I had a Greyhound almost die from getting a Lyme disease vaccination once (the vet gave it without my knowledge or consent - I dropped that vet fast) if I had dropped my boy at home and gone to the store like I had planned, I would have found him dead from a severe allergic reaction an hour later. 

A lot of Doberman puppies seem to have a slowly developing immune system. It is one of the reasons they are so suseptable to parvo. I have personally learned about immune issues in Doberman puppies the hard way - and have paid several thousands of dollars in vet bills because of it. I pass on my knowledge to my puppy families - they tend to listen to what I have to say. They go home with a written letter for their vet on what protocol to follow for my puppy and why. I have never had an issue so far (knock on wood)

I don't expect that most Vets would know all the issues of individual breeds unless they really know that breed. Jean Dobbs DVM has specialized in vaccination protocol - her research has been one of the reasons that vet schools have finally changed their vaccination recommendations to every 3 years instead of every year. In reality, adult dogs may never need another vaccination after their one year booster .....and it is commonly believed that a rabies vaccination lasts at least 7 years. It is also pretty commonly known that rabies shots are very harsh on the system. It is unfortunate that we have to do them as often as we do. I do follow the law on Rabies except for the date of the first shot. In my state, rabies is required by 16 weeks and I don't do them till 6 months. I also micro chip all of my dogs, but not until 6 months also. My vet is fine with this as he knows that I truly have my dogs best interests at heart and will do all of the necessary vaccines. I do well checks, titers, and bloodwork on my dogs on a regular schedule. I've got a great working relationship with my vet and freak out at the thought that he might retire soon!

So you can choose to do what you want with vaccines. I will continue to use common sense and breed knowledge to avoid vaccination issues in the future. 

DobermanGuy's picture
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I had a bitch puppy almost die of HOD - there was no history in her pedigree and the only thing that possibly could have triggered it was a 5 way combo and a rabies given within a week of each other.  I no longer do a 5 way(I don't do Lepto at all) - and I make sure that rabies is always done a month from any other vaccine. Never had a repeat occurance from any of the puppies she whelped or her grandkids. 

Why was she bred at all if that one dog had any sort of adverse reaction to commonly administered and FDA approved vaccines???

Especially if the particular adverse reaction almost killed her???

There is definitely a 'history' in the pedigree now!

(A history that is NOT written and / or documented on the actual pedigree - A history that would be unknown to ANY buyer of dogs from that line unless the breeder verbally told you so / explained it to you and showed you ALL of the health records for every single dog involved in that breeding program)

 

How is that any different from breeding a dog with something like particular food allergies?   

 

 

The very first Doberman I ever had was from a back yard breeder.

I did not even want a dog at the time but the wife wanted one for the kids so I 'compromised' and agreed on the dog thing so long as it was a Doberman... I had absolutely NO clue at the time about 'breeders' or what it takes to have a 'good' Doberman but.. The wife wanted a dog for the kids so...

Some guy we found selling Dobermans in the local paper. Figured the dog was 'OK' because it had AKC 'papers' (woo hoo! - NOT). 

Wife fell in love with that dog and it did the same with her. Followed her EVERYWHERE like a magnet. Responded to her every command like a big black remote control dog. Was very obiedient and protective of her AND the kids. Very smart / VERY easy for her to teach it new words /commands... The more time she spent with it - The smarter and more well behaved / trained it became. Was not many years before she could just point a finger and that dog would do whatever she wanted...

Wife got it in her head one day that she wanted to breed it so she could have 'puppies' from that particular dog. Even as dumb as I was at the time about breeders / breeding and the entire concept of 'Bettering the Breed' - I was smart enough to know it would be a mistake to breed that particular dog if there was even the slightest chance that any of her offspring would be like her AND I was able to explain my point of view to the wife in a way that she understood and could accept / rationalize for herself.   

As great as that dog was with her intelligence, obedience, loyalty, protectiveness, etc. - She was an allergy nightmare that cost me piles of money every single year of her life (money that would not have 'needed' spending if I had bought a 'good' Doberman to begin with). Dander, dandruf, hot spots, smelly, on and on it went the problems we had with various skin issues. There is no way I would wish any of those problems on anyone OR their dog that is going to live in their home with them. Diet changes, vet bills and medicines / shampoos can get really expensive after a while if you have a dog with serious problems and we did... 

 

My current girls do not 'require' special vaccination schedules or meals to be 100% healthy and happy. I can get puppy shots like everyone else and feed them regular and commonly found dog food like (god forbid) Purina puppy chow and their bodies will get what they need and thrive...

Special foods are 'appreciated' but not required.

 

 

      

CRDobe's picture
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Thanks Fitzmar - I for one always appreciate your input!

That bitch: CH Cha-Rish A Moment Like This CGC RN WAC "Louise" lived a very healthy 11 years with no problems after she recovered from HOD - she finished her championship at two years of age, and passed all of her health tests: thyroid, OFA hips, OFA eyes, Cardiac Ultrasound, 24 hour holter monitor, full blood test with kidney & liver panel. Her last cardiac ultrasound was done at age 10 1/2 - it was normal.  She passed the WAE and had her Rally Novice. She was a great family dog for 11 years. I own her son and he is now 10. None of her 11 offspring had the same issue because they followed my instructions to not do rabies close to any other vaccines. 

No dog is perfect - I advised every puppy buyer on what had happened to her at 4 months of age. None of her offspring have had bad issues with allergies - one with some minor seasonal stuff. 3 are Grand Champions, 3 others are pointed, and one other has obedience/rally titles. Only 4 of them were bred - and only one was bred more than once. There are multiple American and Canadian championships from those. 

If we only bred perfect Dobermans with perfect ancestry, there would not be any well bred Dobermans. I always give full disclosure to anyone who asks, and to plenty who don't ask - haha. I think some people think that a good breeder waves some magical wand to make perfect dogs. Perfect does not exist, it is something that we strive for, and man you better have thick skin. There are people out there that would find fault no matter how saintly & ethical a breeder might be. I have no claims on sainthood - haha, but I really embrace the ethical part.