SearchTracking
I've shared with everyone lately how we have been training in several venues in hopes of obtaining a versatility title. Tracking has been the last on the list that we are pursuing. I've trained in the past with a Shutzhund club that I belong to and recently started tracking with a Doberman search and rescue trainer. I'm so pleased with my girl today this is her 5th track which was laid by someone else. This dog is just plain amazing! not only did she follow 4 tracks put down by someone else but went on to follow a older track that was put down by the same person that another dog, handler team had went over and had been put down at least 1 hr prior. This is going to be an exciting sport one that my 5 yr old may enjoy for a long time well into her senior years.
I'm meeting with yet another person tomorrow to learn there way of tracking at 6 am. What I've found so far in my training is that the AKC is much more lax on things then the schutzhund training I started with. Their are numerous ways to lay a track and begin training, I'm proud of my dog that has really taken a liking to this and has excelled at all training styles used thus far. Today when she followed the old track that was layed for an experienced tracking dog just made me beam with excitement and feel extremely proud of her. I knew she would be good at tracking as I've always started my puppies in finding objects in the house including the kids, they love the game and chance to use there nose. I would encourage everyone to try it even if just for the fun of some winter night with a dog that needs some stimulation to challenge there senses. Try starting with finding food or a favorite toy, or child. You will quickly see how quick this breed picks up on it and loves the challenge. If anyone has questions as to how to start just post and I will try and answer.
why the name change I liked the other LOL.
You already have an excellent start with IKE. The article that you posted is a wonderful document full of how to's. It showed in detail how to start laying actual tracks.
I'm looking forward to hearing how your training with this goes, have you already tried some of the tracks in the article you posted?
With my puppies, I will have someone hold them until they know the wait command and can wait by themselves. I then show them the toy or piece of food and walk into the other room, I drag the object to make a scent trail along with scuffing my feet on the carpet to bring up a trail make it very short and easy for the first timers and puppies. Give the command find it or whatever you want to use and have your helper release them. You may have to call them into the room you are in and show them the start of the scent trail again repeating your command. It may be the first couple of times you will have to use your finger and show them where to follow the trail and what is waiting at the end. They pick it up so quickly they will soon be running to find whatever has been hidden for them. Make sure to start with something of high value to them. When they know what find it means then you can start having the kids hide very simple places and help the dog find them at first then gradually on the dogs own. When the dog has found the child have the child give the dog a treat or favorite toy. It's a great game for the winter nights around here when they need some mental stimulation along with exercise. My dogs get really tired from all the excitement of it.
How did that new tracking technique go this morning?
Yes, we're just using the treats in a circle of footsteps method + flag + "such". We've done it three or four times; article says up to ten X. Will lay our first actual track soon. It's fun to see him learning!
Your "Super Puppies" article has been enormously valuable, too.
I tried laying an actual "track" with rewards in the footprints.
It was an utter, abject failure. He did not get to the end and did not get his "pot".
The time he didn't spend fighting his lead, he spent trying to gore his Styrofoam cup into the ground. (He's had ointment, regular ear cleanings, stches out, etc. I don't see how it is possible to train a puppy at 11 weeks with that thing on their head.)
We'll stick with the circle of footprints/treats until he progresses further. Maybe he's just too young.
One thing when you do a puppy track it is VERY short maybe even 6 feet to start. You need to really rough up the trail, taking tiny steps and keeping right with him pointing the whole way keeping his nose to the ground. Another trick is to do it when they are super hungry. food in each footstep, with small steps being the clue.
So how are his ears doing are all the edges healed now? If so you should be able to post them.
He is not to young for small tracks. Big thing is don't get frustrated, you literally have to show them. When I was doing Shutzhund last year they had 10 week old GS puppies doing 15 feet tracks.
The tracks that I did with the search and rescue person were just a bit different then the schutzhund start. What she had me do is basically lay the same type of track but it was triple laid. So you start with the basic scent pad to begin with roughing up a 2*2 square laying a few treats to begin with, then REALLY scuffing your trail similar to small children when they are scuffing in the dirt (looking back at the grass and the trail I made it almost looked like 2 ski tracks if that makes sense) We also used food in each print. When we got to the end put a stake down with your article and food under the article, immediately we turned around back to the starting point and walked directly beside it back to the starting flag, turned and walked back to the end of it (not in the original track but just beside it) thus it became triple laid and heavily scented for the beginner :) She had me take a huge jump then move over about 5-10 feet and repeat the exact same kind of track. She had me do 3 of these and at the end of the very last one we made a huge deal out of it and played with her favorite working toy. Not just any toy but one she only gets as high rewards for working. It was a great release and end to the game for her.
Now, what I discovered is the big difference between this and the Schutzhund training is the strickness of Schutzhund style. In Schutzhund we had a regular buckle collar on and the lead went hooked to the collar and down underneath the right front leg. This helps the dogs nose to stay to the ground. In this type of training you do not want your dog to go off of the track at all it is laid in single style using lots of treats under each step. You stay right by the dog and point at each one not letting them turn to the side or get the body crooked. In Schutzhund they want the nose to be buried in the turf fully and to track a very straight line. While it sounds very rigid and formal it lays the groundwork for a beautiful tracker. Done properly the dog should enjoy this type of training also. You can still do the high end reward at the end. I will compare the last training we did today later. I'm going to be meeting with yet another person from the Schutzhund club on Wednesday so will see how she thinks we are doing.
That is fascinating, the S&R vs. the Schutzhund tracking. So the one today was triple-laid. Your dog is also seasoned to this sort of thing and quite talented.
I'm going to stick with the Schutzhund-type training. There's no way I can put the amount of versatility time you do into your dogs, but I do want him to become really good at just one or two things with the time we do have. If we can just earn the Schutzhund I qualification, I'd be pleased as punch. (And then think about II, and maybe III). BTW let me know if you all are coming to W. Washington for any trials (or shows), would love to see Paris in action!
I'm also worried about pushing him too hard in puppyhood and making training not fun. Somewhere a long time back I read something to the effect of "letting them enjoy their short puppyhood." I wonder if that is part and parcel of the same view that embraces a strict, jerk-style obedience training class beginning at at least six months. The gentle, early start approach ala Super Puppies seems much more appealing because it keeps training gentle and more fun.
Per what you've described, my expectations today were WAAYY too high: I laid a 50-foot track (don't laugh!) with normal length footsteps, a treat in each. So start little you say, six-foot track, tiny footsteps. That makes perfect sense. We'll try it again tomorrow.
It looks like the key is following a line of scent, regardless of how it is laid.
(His ears are doing much better, thank you! They are looking healed now, with less and less scab every day.)
We had a pretty good tracking session today. There is no question he knows the "such" command now.
On another topic:
He's quite hyper and a bit rough with the kids, so we must be careful and supervise when they are playing.
I don't want to tell him "no bite" on everything (that's one of Schuthund requirements), but OTOH he got a bit rough with my son (4 in June): It was just a play incident, no blood or anything, but I got a call from the wife stating Ike would be spending that day in the kennel except for potty breaks. When I'm present, I'd just slip a toy that he knows is "his" in when he tries to bite our feet. One thing I tried was just shoving him away when he bites. That failed - he just goes at the hand/foot with even more energy as though it were a game.
Another disturbing habit I'd like to curb: When I do put the tug toy in front of him, occasionally he will go for my hand instead of the toy.
Edit: I would add that all of these incidents occur when he is in "prey drive", with the ears alert, the mouth partly open, and/or a "smile" with his upper canines showing. This is a GOOD trait, as I understand, for a Schutzhund prospect, but needs to be properly channeled. Ike is fortunate to have multiple Schutzhund III-titled dogs/bitches in his lineage, as well as some AKC champions. He's both Euro and AKC.
Guessing that the real bite work training beginning around 10 months, complete with an agitator, will help teach him the proper distinction between acceptable (read: on command) biting/detaining and unacceptable. Until then it's going to be a balancing act, with the chief concern being that what is now, with a 25 lb puppy, merely "cute" may not be so cute when he's 50, 75 lbs.
Would appreciate your advice here, and also any updates on your own tracking exploits w/Paris.
:) How accute is the dobies sense of smell? We have professional hunters here who hunt for ambergris (whale poo) with tracker dogs and 4WD,s. Its a very valuable commodity I found a 150gram lump(size of a small youghurt pot) once which netted me $1,800 kiwi dollars. I never even thought that Q could seek it out? It is a very pungent smell I will have a go at hiding some around the house. :)
Yeah for the Such command, I bet you are proud of him!
I'm going to have to go back and re-read your post later and I will answer more on it at that time. The next couple weeks for me are insane I have 7 shows we are entered in and multiple events plus I'm in charge of judges hospitality and trophys. Needless to say my free time is absolutely zilch:(
One thing that I want to comment on briefly is that I wouldn't hesitate to teach no bite with your children. It is a natural instinct for the puppy to want to run after them and bite while they are playing. If you have a high prey drive then this makes it even tougher. My friend who has several schutzhund dogs and 1 child has always taught hers NO BITE around the kids. Her dogs turn on just fine in the field. You want to start this now and not later. If your dog has the proper drives then you wont have to worry that he will not do Schutzhund later. I think teaching acceptable biting is a must when children are present.
I'm going back to the original Schutzhund tracking with Paris, she was picking up to many bad habits. While it might be acceptable with AKC stuff, I think it looks better and she will be a better tracker to follow the original training. It's a little tough because it is so slow. The dog can find the end of the trail just fine and quite quickly I might add, but if we don't slow down then her nose will never be as deep into the track as it should be. I've been talking with the Schutzhund trainer about it lately. We are so fortunate here to have him as he is a world schutzhund judge.
:) How accute is the dobies sense of smell? We have professional hunters here who hunt for ambergris (whale poo) with tracker dogs and 4WD,s. Its a very valuable commodity I found a 150gram lump(size of a small youghurt pot) once which netted me $1,800 kiwi dollars. I never even thought that Q could seek it out? It is a very pungent smell I will have a go at hiding some around the house. :)
Wow, I think you should try it they have a wonderful sense of smell and are quite good at tracking. Let us know how it goes.
:) How accute is the dobies sense of smell? We have professional hunters here who hunt for ambergris (whale poo) with tracker dogs and 4WD,s. Its a very valuable commodity I found a 150gram lump(size of a small youghurt pot) once which netted me $1,800 kiwi dollars. I never even thought that Q could seek it out? It is a very pungent smell I will have a go at hiding some around the house. :)
Q, I think if you can make a few bucks doing this, and if you can find some ambergris to teach him the scent, definitely go for it! :)
Of online resources, I've found this one very useful: http://users.skynet.be/hexental/training.htm#art2. Your training approach may differ a bit.
Thinking about how I might approach this problem: It isn't quite the same as tracking as this is something that would wash ashore rather than have been tracked somewhere overland. You might start with the ambergris arbitrarily placed somewhere on your property or wherever your practice field is and teach Q to play find-the-thimble.
I'm actually pretty excited for you as this sounds like a great and rewarding opportunity for you and Q.
RND, I do remember you saying May would be a helter-skelter month for you and Paris! Thanks for taking the time to reply, great advice as always, and please let us know how she is doing on the show circuit! :)
Qtip - I think the training would be more akin to the training of a drug dog. A seek and find rather than track.
:)Thank you for the link omagawolf, and as rgreen says the training would be more similar to the police and customs dogs. I was thinking in particular of the fruit dogs that we have at the airports which come and sit by you if you have had any fruit in your bag. I know that Q is 'uber smart' so i need to work out a good plan before i start. Ambergris is organic so maybe tasty to dogs? :) It is also very rare and the locals have walked the beach for years without finding any. Ive just been in the right place at the right time. :)
I'm excited to hear how you go about this!
:) Thanks. From what ive read The dog associates 'the drug' with its favourite toy. The toy used most often is a white towel. Police dogs love to play a vigorous game of tug-of-war with their favorite towel. To begin the training, the handler simply plays with the dog and the towel, which has been carefully washed so that it has no scent of its own. Later, a bag of marijuana is rolled up inside the towel. After playing for a while, the dog starts to recognize the smell of marijuana as the smell of his favorite toy. The handler then hides the towel, with the drugs, in various places. Whenever the dog sniffs out the drugs, he digs and scratches, trying to get at his toy. He soon comes to learn that if he sniffs out the smell of drugs, as soon as he finds them he'll be rewarded with a game of tug-of-war.
Its funny ive never played pull and tug with Q as i read that it encourages roughness in the dog and i wonder how long the towel would last lol :)
I could never get Red to play Tug-Of-War, but Princess loves it.
:) Every time you talk about Red i always think of those big black kongs (as you said he carries one around)
Ive seen them at the vets they are huge!!! Q is just on the normal red one...I cant quite think that Q is ever going to be big enough to carry the black one. :) Must get some new pics on here too.
My name is Debi, and I am very new to this site. My 4 month old Inari Sky is going to be my second Tracking Dog. I train Tracking dogs for missing persons and crime scene investigations. We never use treats, only the dogs natural hunting instincts. All dogs track scent, reguardless of breed. Its just a matter of training them to human scent over animal scent. We use extreme POSITIVE reinforcement only. And when they find there person, they get lots of LOVE and PRAISE, and they thrive on that...:)
Hope to be talking with some of you soon. Debi
Debi,
I'm very excited to hear more from you on tracking. I'm currently training my dobergirl for this. I love to hear new ideas or tips anything you find helpful! Please post more on your experiences. My goal is to have the basic tracking title by next spring. She is being bred next month so we have a little recoup time in there.
How is the tracking coming along, RND?
Well, you know I'm going to ask! That does sound like a rather fun game, and useful intellectual challenge for the puppy.
The Schutzhund is German, and Germans are pretty serious, sticklers for perfection. I'd imagine this might take a little of the fun out of it, but it would also probably depend on one's goals. Would be interesting to learn of your observations of the differences you mentioned vs. the equivalent discipline under AKC rules.
That must indeed have been a proud moment for you, when she began nosing down the track set for the experienced tracker. Your hard work is really paying off, and obviously gives you great joy! Your dogs are very fortunate.
(Formerly "HeadB!tch")