SearchYou never stop learning and training
I don't even know what to title this thread. Elated. I got my dog back. Things are finally where they were. It worked!
You all know I was attacked by the neighbors dog a few months ago, and I'm sure you've seen hints of mention in here, but it did something to Steve. Literally. It couldn't have come at a worse time. I was so laid up with morning sickness (I know, complain complain...) that if I got off the couch I'd be visiting Mr. Toilet so poor Steve's issues only grew instead of getting nipped as they developed. I couldn't walk him and Eli's work schedule picked up so he didn't get him out as much either. Anytime we did manage to go for a walk, Steve was a nightmare.
Steve was never a bad walker. He pulled as a puppy and then I bought a prong, taught him to not pull, and he was a very laid back walker. He'd drop his mouth, pant, smile and look at things as if they were nothing. We could sit and lay down in front of a dog on the other side of the fence barking and freaking out and Steve would just look up at me with, "Can we move on now?"
But the day we got attacked it was like something switched. Any time we went out the door, he was on high alert. It was not fun to walk him and I felt like he wasn't having fun either. He'd have his head up, ears alert, looking left right behind him, stiff-legs... every indication that he was thoroughly agitated and not focused on anything but the possibility of another dog. If a dog was on the other side of the street, he'd start this high pitch wailing and freak out trying to get to the dog.
Male, female, small, or large. The other dog only made it worse.
Trust me, I tried everything. I tried redirecting, I tried forcing into a sit and lay down and letting the dogs pass and ignoring him. I tried corrections. Food. Low stimulating areas, high stimulating areas. It was the worse on my street just trying to get anywhere. And no, if you're wondering if it was my tension relating to him - he'd do it with Eli too.
If one method doesn't work with a dog I'm working with, I switch it up until I find a way to communicate what I want. With Steve, it took getting an e-collar which I had suggested to a few people in the past. I got the one that buzzes and am soon getting the one that vibrates. It is nothing more than an extension of the leash, without the leash. When he doesn't follow through I give him a nick - just like a snap correction with a prong - and then force him through it.
Today I took him out with it on the first time for our walk. I still had his prong collar on as without it he thinks he isn't working. I know he has collar association, and may have it with the e collar, but I don't care. I took him to the park and I practiced Paul's suggestions on the long lead training - just like the videos I've been watching, too - only when he walked away from me or didn't redirect to follow me he'd get a warning until he followed through. I did this for about 15 minutes, Stella in tow. Both of them were heeling perfectly by the time we broke from the practice and walked the rest of the park.
I had Steve's leash loose, LOOSE, beside me as we walked. His head came down, he rolled into that easy gait and flat out enjoyed the walk. I'd tell him to "down" he'd down and look to me. I'd tell him sit, he'd sit. He even laid down and ignored squirrels without more than a verbal command. Squirrels!!!
We got home and I can tell he's happy. I can't even put into words. I'm getting emotional right now about it. It's like, after that trauma, I had a dog who wasn't my dog anymore on some occassions. And now - now he's back to being my Steve who teaches people how great dobermans are. Even when we walked by the dreaded Bad House, my tension came up as they were out (no dogs, thank god) and he picked it up for a second and all I did was say, "ah-ah" and down his head went and he relaxed.
I thought I'd share. I know there are a few other boys on here that are giving parents headaches and I know I am quick to give advice, and receive it, but at the same time I wanted to share even with all my training, all my experience, I still face roadblocks too. I still pick up books and read, look up articles, try new things.
Long winded, but thanks for reading. It felt good to share.
That is so great to hear! Ahhh I can basically hear your relief through the screen! Dakota is leash reactive when it comes to other dogs, and it's always a fight to get her to walk nicely so I can totally relate to your frustration. It's not something I've talked about on here because I'm just fed up, and as much as it's something I want to address, at this point we live in the middle of no where with few strange dogs and I just have her off leash most of the time...so it's not something I have to deal with on a daily basis. As terrible as that is, it's just easier for me to put it off unless I feel like taking her to town specifically to "work" on it...
But, forgive me, I don't want to hijack your thread :) It sounds like Steve was totally relieved to have things back to normal too! It really highlights the relationship between you being in charge on walks, and how he reacts to things...When you are the Alpha, he doesn't have to worry about what's going on around him and can just be relaxed and enjoy the walk. Kate is right, you have enough on your plate with work, school and baby on the way. One less thing to cause stress is reason for celebration!
HUGS!! xoxo
Jes, KT is right, you are an inspiration! Everyone has hurdles and it lifts everyone's spirit when we hear a success story.
Congrats all the wonderful things that are coming your way!
kudos to steve and to you for following through.....i echo the feelings of you being an inspiration b/c i feel as though you reply out of true concern and knowledge ....and it gives me hope with my big boy....i was actually going to start a thread today on e-collars and i'd love to talk to you about how you used yours in training
Great job Jes. Nosebumps to you and Steve from Princess and I.
Thanks guys, I couldn't wait to get home and share!
I will certainly write out what I did and share the videos I watched, tomorrow! :) just finished up work.
All this inspiration talk makes a girl blush! And Kate, I love you too lady.
Jess. thank you for sharing this story. It always makes us feel great and believe even more in our kids when we have to make it thru some of the difficult or stubborn periods of their development. Some of our obstacles last for a few days, weeks or months and when one has so much in their private and work lives going on.... well, it can be frustrating when the dobe is out of sync too.
It gives me some hope for Leo as he is going through several things since our move. About a month before we moved, our neighbors' dog was out, off leash, by himself. This is their typical method of keeping their yard clean, let the dogs out to poop in someone else's yard. It was dark and I wanted to take Leo for a full moon walk. It's been too hot for day walks. We headed out the door and with in a few steps something approached us from behind. It startled me and the Le at the same time and I turned to see a large white dog in the moonlight. He had a friendly approach, but the startle that we felt overcame Leo and he immediately hackled up and started the low throat growls and pulling to get to the dog. He never had approached another dog like that, so I attribute it to the startle. She was female, by the way. Leo was so tense and so strong that all I could think to do was turn and go back inside. I know, really bad move on my part! I was startled and just couldn't think and we were within a few yards of my door. A few weeks passed, we moved and on a return trip (to pick up more valuable junk) there is another dog in our yard, same family. Without recalling the previous event, we get out. This dog approaches Leo, who is on a leash, side ways on the ground tail wagging, totaly submissive. Leo has the same reaction as with the white dog, hackles up, low growl and pulling to get to him. I tell him its okay, we stand there and Leo calms some. Then inside and out to the backyard. Ive got my work to do.
I'm adding this not to take over from Steve's story, but just as another example of how one little, or big in you attack case of an unexpected event can really throw off course or training. Leo did an obedience class without any moves or fears towards other dogs. When it was cooler and we went walking on our street, no big upsets. But that one surprise in the moonlight, set up suspicion of other dogs.
Anyway, I am overjoyed for you and Steve. It feels so great when they come back to the dog you know they are and will be. Congrats on helping him get there! You guys are one of my favorite teams!
Now which thread did I miss about loosing 15 pounds? I hope part of that was Eli's! We gotta talk!
Icecream, cheesecake, trip to New Orleans!
Jes, I have to echo everything that Kate and the others have said. You ARE an inspiration, seriously. Occasionally, our 'perfect' dogs will have a setback. Your perserverance in training Steve with everything available until you hit upon the right key is awesome. I know of so many people that have dogs that when they get to that setback period of their life, the owners just give up, let them remain in that zone, or actually get rid of the dog because it no longer behaves well. (Dont get me started with people like that...I have a neighbor that does that all the time) YOU, are SUPERWOMAN, for sure. Steve is a much better boy now that you helped him find his way back to his happy place emotionally, because dogs so often just cant get back there by themselves.
You ROCK, Jess.
Kudos to you for getting rid of this naughty behavior Steve picked up. You did what you had to do and now he is back to his perfect self. You are Amazing!
We had the exact same issues with Athena after she was attacked and ended up having to get a PT to fix it.
Janelle and Barb there is no hijacking threads here... it's an open ended topic!
Barb, in the case of Leo and the neighbors dog, I would've dropped the leash and let them sniff. It would've removed some of Leo's insecurities because he is tied down - they know it - and feels more protective of you for it. I'd also go have a few words to the neighbor about dogs at large... that is my biggest pet peeve for obvious reasons. I think in the first circumstance you DID the smart thing. Dark out, you're startled, Leo is startled.. dog is there? Safest thing was to move inside.
CF - I did call a trainer a long time ago because of some issues in the house, for pricing. I didn't have the money for it but the guys methods got me thinking.. and the wonderful resource that is the Internet really helped me out. Part of me wishes we could go to the people who owned the dogs who attacked our dogs and make them pay.. if only they KNEW what it did to our dogs... grr..
Here is the link to the trainer I liked: http://www.youtube.com/user/panzertoo?feature=uploademail_ch -- she just films her training and shares them. I added to her channel and she sent me a personal note thanking me and telling me if I have questions to feel free to ask. That's someone who is passionate about their work!
I did sessions with the ecollar on at home first to test and see Steve's reaction, following her directions but modifying them because the collar I originally had did not have the vibrate option like hers in the video does. That's in the mail because a physical warning rather than an auditory one makes more sense. We practiced with me on the couch some days.. lucky stomach of mine.. but the point of the ecollar is you can be anywhere and working with them. We'd do a verbal "SIT" and if he didn't follow through, he got his warning then a nick. I tested which level was necessary to get the response and use it. Then we'd go into a "DOWN". And tons of praise when he accomplished it. Food doesn't motivate him enough so we would break for sessions of tug - like Kevin always says, know the rewards that matter.
We'd then practice recall from the backyard - I have them have access to the yard from their sunroom and when I would be doing stuff in the house when they were outside I'd clap and call him in - especially if he started barking. If he didn't follow through, warning then a nick. The point of the ecollar is not to ruin your verbal commands with repetition. That's where we went wrong with some training "Sit, sit, sit, SIT SIT SIT SIT" oh finally he'd sit... not the right way...
I upgraded to her leash techniques yesterday and had wonderful success. My goal is to switch off the prong and have the ecollar only - he will look less menancing to strangers with it. The prong and no e-collar will go on when the kids walk him and maybe Eli.. I want this training to be done right... please don't tell hubby-to-be... but he needs training himself on it :)
I sat and watched hours of videos before I went this route, read literature on it, really thought about it. Talked to people who used them. It may not be for every dog. I couldn't see Ziva or Raven doing well with it, but big knuckle heads like Cisco and Steve - Gauge? You bet.
thanks for the site....i can so relate to the sit,sit,sit and yeah he'll probably do it....the thing that makes me so aggravated is he KNOWS what i'm telling him....and like i've said b4 i try to be alpha (troop says im not :o) but sometimes he is just plain hard headed....and you're right about it not being for all dogs....i think it would have an adverse effect on sasha....but him....nawww....i was concerned about getting one b/c when we had our first dobe we bought one but honestly we didnt train with it like we should....we were just plain ig-a-nant (yes its a word)....i probably didnt use it a couple of times and some ppl in the house-i wont mention any names ahem- would give him a small jolt when he was doing something that person didnt like but there was no follow through or instruction with it....i dont agree with that and if i get one for him the remote will be hidden and only i'll know the location :)....my neighbor told me he used one to train his lab to come and that he could be a good ways from him now and yell for him to come and he'd "come a runnin" and he no longer has the collar....i watch one show that says they cause so much anxiety in dogs dont use them...i trust you know so i'll ck into it....thanks again for your help
Jes- I thought the same thing, those owners should be liable for any effect their actions have on our dogs. I probably could have sued them if I would have filed a malicious dog report. Especially since we both had physical injuries. Also, I will be getting a ecollar for Athena's counter surfing...nothing has stopped it. Negative consequences, positive reinforcement, horseraddish, dave's redhot, NOTHING stops her. So it will be time for an ecollar. Unfortunately we can use it for anything else since we have a IF and to her it means you are in a place you aren't supposed to be and you have to back up. But the good thing is we don't really have any other issues.
Rmk let me know how it goes for you... watch those videos they are awesome!
And CF -- yeah, but at least you can continue to use it as warning. I saw in a store the other day basically a IF for the kitchen counter.. maybe a cheaper options? E-collars are $$.
very cool, so glad to hear you guys can enjoy your walks again..:)
Thanks for sharing that Jes! I could echo everything said...always great to have you around. You're a great example to all of us.
I'm so glad the collar worked. I'm going to check out that video. We used an ecollar to get Reesie to stop chasing cars. I watched some videos, read some stuff, but haven't seen this. I haven't used it for much else.
Way to go, getting Steve past his issues and back to normal!!!
We tried to get one of those things for the counter that works with our IF but long story short it wouldn't work reliably. So I am actually going to borrow one from a family member, I don't think it is going to take more than a few times, she hates being zapped.
.
Your putting an E-Collar on a dog for going on a counter? Have you tried working with a professional trainer? Shocking a dog for counter surfing is abit extreme, no? Von
...........an E-Collar AND a prong? In all honesty don't you think its time to let someone else handle the dog? No offense but you have more encounters in a month than most folks have in a life time. A pro trainer could certtainly help you, try it.
Von, if you read her posts, she does work with a professional trainer.
Just because someone smacks a certificate behind their name doesn't mean they can belittle everyone, either.
And if you read up on different training styles, you'd know that you don't have to SHOCK with an e-collar but give a vibrating warning to extend your leash training.
This thread isn't for an argument, and that's all I'm saying on the subject.
Hey - guess what? The trainer I did talk to told me to keep his prong on since he has collar association and to start transitioning to the ecollar.
Thanks you are SO helpful. I didn't think I could do this without you.. I just make these posts to make myself feel better.. you know, sharing that my dog has issues after we were attacked? I mean, why would I do that? So I could have wonderful people like you be rude and tell me what an idiot I am? Because I certainly think thats why I did this post. No, it wasn't so I could help other people and share an experience with them at all.
Man.. I better go get on the phone with Cesar Milan.. Steve's out of control monster.. he needs professional help
No one is belittling anyone its how you take it that makes you defensive. It IS extreme to have an e-collar and a prong and the dog still has no manners! Sorry its the handler at this point whos not timing corrections and whos energy is not positive it seems as though your promoting fear and the dog is reacting to your negative reactions to the encounters. Honestly if you can't take some straight up advice its your problem I just feel bad for the dog who obviously needs some training with direction. If you can't understand that then you have no idea what a Dobermann or any other working breed is about. Your dog needs help cause YOU need training. Von
Wow, here we go again.
Von
Let me tell you this, I do work with an amazing professional trainer. If you read earlier nothing that we have tried has worked for the counter surfing.
Really who are you to judge me, I have more encounters in a month then most people have in a lifetime. What issues to I have, yes my dog counter surfs. If that is so terrible that I should give my dog over to someone else to do then training then I must be a terrible dog owner and she would just be better off without me.
Get off you high horse I am so sick and tired of you coming in and belittling people with your condesending nature. You might have good advice SOMETIMES but it gets lost in all your bullshit.
OK VON.. Thats going a bit far.. Steve is a wonderful dog and has had few issues.. I have seen owners who have no idea or ability to train their dogs and she is not one of them.. She loves Steve and is doing everything she can to correct his issues..
You said "Honestly if you can't take some straight up advice its your problem I just feel bad for the dog who obviously needs some training with direction." but I do not see you offering advice.. Only to go get a trainer and that she doesnt need a Doberman.. How about offering some positive solutions instead of negativity..
NOBODY is perfect and Im sure at some point you have dealt witha problem dog, befroe you knew what to do.. Did someone belittle you or did they help in a positive manner?
Also, it has nothing to do with Steve having no manners it has to do with a situation that happened and changed his behavior pattern. Jes tried to correct the problem with other "traditional" methods to no avail. Any PROFESSIONAL trainer (which you are not) would know that if a method does not work try something else, until you find one that does work.
You just dont get it.
I offer suggestions over the net, for obvious reasons, the most important issue is not to get an owner bitten. I can't evaluate the dog but I can rely on my experiences and in my experience she needs a REAL pro trainer. I'm guessing her trainer is a treat giver and this dog is not that bad other than possible fear issues. Trainers pass out prongs and E's to folks who don't have the physical strength needed, or can't time corrections properly these tools are used with dominent dogs or people who can't get on top of the situations weither its a physical problem or mentally aren't strong enough. There isn't any other reasons for this conduct.
I'd love to hear why these tools were given and was there any counter training to begin with? Has the street situation been adressed by setting up these senerios? If so what happened if not why not?
I don't second guess other trainers because theres ALWAYS other parts to the net stories that get "missing" it never fails. Von
Von I feel bad for your Dobermans .....
They must have perfect manners...being that you are so perfect and know more than anyone else.
They must use the right fork at the dinner table, lay their napkin across their lap, etc.
Oh one more don't even think of telling me about your experience. I don't want to here it. Try using some compassion, someone wanted to share an improvement a good moment....and now look what this has turned into.
She has taken a positive step with Steve and you respond with a comment like yours. It's a bit too far..no it's way over the line.
She has made something negative and turned it into a positive and was proud of it. She wanted to share that happiness and moving forward and only wanted to share with her friends here. Obviously you HAVE NOT read this post or any of her other past posts about Steve.
Let me tell you something about life.
YOU ARE NOT PERFECT
YOU DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING
livelaughlove.........Positive advises, set up the senerios with your trainer on ALL problem situations, thats the FIRST thing I do. Von
How the hell can you evaluate a dog or a person who has a dog with an issues...any issue.
without seeing for yourself.
The answer is that you can't
You are not there
Jess deserves an apology...
BTW congrats on your FIRST steps.. Funny thing.. I have 3 Dobes who are wel behaved and have NEVER been to a "professional" trainer.. I took Bella last year to a training facility to have her evaluated and after she ignored all the half crazed GSD's they said o we would love to have her here.. Yeah no thats ok.. I will keep working on my own and guess what.. the only issue she has is a distaste for people who are "iffy".. O and she wants tons of Loving ALL the time.. Wait those are not problems..
Jess Im so sorry that your thread was hijacked :o( Im really glad to hear that you are having some progress with Steve..
Phil take a pill and get a grip, I already said that (evaluations)if you read the posts upward you'd know that. I give suggestions and constantly ask folks to use their trainers and if theres no results find another one. I don't want people getting bit, and my concern is for the dog so they get the support and training they need.
Jess deserves straight talk so she and her dogs don't get into anymore situations were their health becomes in doubt. Why are you all some emotional, does anyone here have service training or anyone practice positive conditioning? This is a sensitive few for sure. Von
OK Von- I think we have all just about had it with you- Stop stirring the pot!
My trainer- is a k9 officer, breeder of belgian shepards, has bred and owned dobes, and trains k9 dogs and on the side does obedience and issue training for private citizens. He suggests, prongs, e-collars. Does this make him a bad "treat" trainer? Who knows if you even are a trainer!?!?!?!
There were issues that my trainer could not get Cisco to break and he suggested a camp type setting for him- we went that route and are now back w/ him and cisco has made leaps and bounds.\
Congrates to cisco, are YOU stirring the Pot now? Von
Take a pill?
Get a grip?
You didn't say that you were rude to Jess........
I read every single post. You don't give suggestions. You always give your opinions. Not only do you only give your opinions you push your opinions on everyone else. You push your opinions so much that you always attempt to back it up with your experience. And if you read Jess did seek help!
Out of everyone here pretty much said that you went over the line.
So everyone but you is wrong ?
Maybe you should change your name to
Mr. Perfect
Most of us post here to seek advise not to be bashed by people that think they know everything. Jess is not the only one and this is not the only thread.
Von want to know something I was going to leave this forum because of you and few other know-it-alls, but a few people here that I have become good friends with from here convinced me to stay.
I've been to the other forums and I seen all the bashing and all the other drama so I never joined them that is why I came here. But lately there has been a lot of that here. Maybe I really should, cause I don't need it and I don't want it.
Be a man and apopgize to Jess...
von--I always am amazed at how you can jump into the middle of a discussion and all of a sudden have the perfect solution to every problem. Your way of training might work for you, for your dogs, for your "clients" as I have seen you post....but that doesn't make every other solution or training method or posibility WRONG. Ever hear the old saying "there's more than one way to skin a cat"? Well, guess what...there is also more than one way to train a dog, be it a doberman or a poodle. There are many 'professional trainers' that will disagree with your methods as well. I'm not trying to judge your training methods, but I really think the way you approach things with your "I've trained more dobermans than anyone I know" and your "My way is the only way" attitude throws a wet blanket on every single positive post that starts out after you chime in. Why? Why do you do this? Certainly not to make anyone feel better----unless it would be maybe......yourself???
It's okay guys it's not going to come and we don't need to feed into it anymore.
No need to let this be like the other forums.
We will keep our forum where advice and suggestions are welcome if they are given. Attacking and demeaning I will now ignore. Ignoring is only way to not let drama win.
I do appreciate the effort to defend me. It really upset me, but that comes with being pregnant.
I know what I am doing is right and if it doesn't "fit" someones model oh well.. Cant change me by being an ass to me..
Totally agree with Phil and Paul.
Funny how everytime he chimes in the Original Purpose of the thread somehow goes astray. Funny that this is the only person it happens with (well maybe Katt as well).Sorry you feel the need to be so self-absorbed. It seems the people who knew you from other forums aren't very fond of you either. Weird huh?
Well said Jess. This thread is CLOSED.
ok....totally off subject and little light hearted humor in the midst of all of this but thanks mandy b/c i now know what OP stands for...hahaha...i kept trying different words and never could get it ....sad i know
its very simple daddy, to let people have some trust in someone who speaks from their heart about being for their dogs safety. Whats the point about talking "dog" on a pet forum were the membership isn't gonna get it anyways. I tell them I've been training for all these years so they can have some comfort and try what I suggest. Because my name isn't all over the net I didn't exsist? I trained with the best trainers in the States in the 60s and 70s am I bragging??? You seem to think so!!! Why? Because your a group of defensive pet owners who think you know more than professional trainers who have made their living training dogs!!! Not a fireman who trains dogs at the center on friday nights, a FULL TIME trainer. Theres a few breeders here who know their "stuff" yet your defensive with them also. I talk straight and thats from running classes with 50 in there. I ran PP sessions up and down the east coast of the USA and trained and conducted seminars all over the world. I'm not degrading anyone your listening to someone who knows their shit and your all freakin out about your own damn egos and not taking what I'm saying and applying it to the dogs.
Why aren't the most celebrated trainers, breeders, handlers etc on forums???? Because if the experts come, and their talking from the hip it doesn't take long for the "internet" experts to arrive.
I was told that this was a pet forum with a core group that uses it as a chat room and they circle the wagons if a new person comes on that might differe abit from their MO, well my friend got that right. Someone questioned this places ethics the other day and refered to the place as a group of hypocrites. I'm not sure thats 100% valid but I'll tell you'll something, your defensive as all hell, YOUR one dimentional in your thought on what a Dobermann is, and not one of you mention or even suggest to a new member to look up the Dobermann Standard!!! You see you don't abid by it, you think the breed is yours, you don't take care of it, instead you want something from it. You don't know or care about the structure it needs to have or the character it needs to maintain. The Dobermann has needs, I don't hear any of you talk about that. If you knew what the Standard calls for you wouldn't be having all these simple training problems. I was taught by the best trainers, breeders and handlers, its a shame that you can't understand that by reading what I'm writing instead your reading an attitude in there that doesn't exsist. Theres a few folks on these forums that have met me inperson, some had misgivings about me and read me wrongly too. I'm not gonna write to them to come here and offer a testimonial about me. You either get me or you don't!! In that case theres plenty of trainers and damn sure plenty of clients. Hell I do this for nothing as it is, well not nothing, the Dobermann I care for. Von
Von is there anyone here that you won't attack.
You are right (for once). I am defensive. Everytime you attempt to degrade someone here I take offense. And I will defend my friends here, I will defend my family, and my dogs. And do I know more than professionals NO I don't. I ask questions. But when I have a positive post I don't expect anyone to degrade me. Just because you are a professional (or think you are) does not make everything you say or do is right.
Let me tell you something. I have not been here all that long Caine dies from Cancer(go ahead tell me I did something wrong...or caused it). I was welcomed with open arms. I was not an ass...I did not push my opinions on everyone. I did not think I was the almighty know everything trainer, breeder, or whatever.
So don't even go there about being a newbie and about being hypocrites.
You know nothing about dealing with people.
You have the _____ to tell me I'm one dimentional in what I feel a Doberman is?
Obviously you don't even know how to read there are many posts and links in this forum about the standard.
How the hell do you know what I abide by and what I don't.
You don't hear us talk about Doberman needs? You're kidding right?
If you were taught by the best trainers...then you FAILED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW Doberman is spelled with one "n" not two.
I've had it...and I'm outta here...
Von-
Do you actually read all of the posts and the entire content of the posts? Because you seem to comment and go WAY off topic. You tell us we need to seek professional treatment, which many of us do, then tell us that our trainers aren't good enough and are only treat givers. I can't speak for others' trainers but my trainer is not a treat giver. She competes nationally in schutzhund, personal protection and tracking, and has 2 very power, well behaved GSDs. Yes she gives treats and praise when earned, but in turn gives corrections to match the behavior of the dog. She is a professional that makes her living training dogs.
You say that your main goal is to help the owners not get bitten, but not one of these topics dealt with aggression. Steve developed a behavior problem after another dog tried to attack him and his family. Which made him over protective. Isn't that a doberman's job...to protect the family? Jes felt that his behavior was too intense and corrected the problem right away. My dog Athena has a problem counter surfing and yet you told me that she has more problems in a month then other owners have in a whole lifetime, I still ask you what problems she has? Then you tell me that she has fear issues as well...what are you basing this accusation on.
You are giving very harsh advice on behavior, corrections, and training when you have not evaluated the dog. Maybe you are a great trainer, I have no idea. But if that is the case why are you giving advice so completely off topic. No professional I know would go so far over the top without really knowing the true behaviors of the dog. Wouldn't you consider it unethical and a liability to give advice without truly knowing the situation?
As far as this forum being all about having pets. Yes most of the members here have only "pet" dogs, is that so wrong? Many Many of them are rescues. Some of use have show dogs or show quailty dogs. We are very big on finding the right breeder, doing our research and having happy well rounded, well behaved members of our family.
You speak often of the nature of a doberman and fufilling their needs. What is the nature, what are their needs? Because quite frankly, the doberman was breed as the ONLY personal protection dog. So that really means that they should not be able to mingle with anyone out of their immediate family. I guess dobermans should not be allowed to compete in any non protection sports because that is just not what they were bred for. Dobermans have high prey drive so they shouldn't be allowed to live with cats or small dogs because that just goes against their nature. Doesn't this sound ridiculous.
I will admit your comments are harsh and when they seem so off topic they sting. Which they should, to most of us these are members of our family, we would put our life in danger to save theirs, go hungry just so they could eat, sacrifice everything just to pay medical bills if they evr may need it. Maybe you don't live your with these same values and if so thats ok, but does that make us so terrible because thats what we choose?
So that all being said, don't you want to enjoy being part of this forum? OR do you really just want to come in here and cause chaos 90% of the time you post? Because I am sure that I can speak for everyone, we love the experienced members and their advice....even though it has been said that it doesn't seem like that. Truly we do, I can say that I will truly try to show more interest and willingness to accept advice (when appropriate).
So I challenge you this. Give good pertinent advice without all the condescending BS. Enjoy the people of this forum, laugh with us, cry with us and cheer us on. We can all live in harmony, if we choose.
Amen Control Freak!!!!
CF - Amen as well.
Mr. Perfect - if isn't clear this is how your comments come across to us - 
von Cosack Doberman, the reason no one is taking you seriously has nothing to do with their attitude, it has to do with yours. You're being confrontational and unnecessarily rude. If you're genuinely concerned for the dogs, and want to communicate productive things to owners, you can't do it in this way and expect it to be productive. Just look at this topic as an example. Your attitude has ruined it. You could have made your suggestions in a kind way just as easily, and they would have been heard.
This is you one warning von Cosack Doberman. The purpose of Gentle Doberman is to improve the world for Dobermans. Although your intentions may certainly be to that effect, your attitude and tone is offputting enough to result in the opposite effect.
**runs in, grabs the pills mentioned above, sneeks back out**
Thanks Webby.,... I was gone.. I mean.. totally gone, then some one suggested I see that you backed your Forum and defended the principals you set so many years ago..appreciate your words, your wisdom and YOU
Kate
I agree Webby.. Thank YOU!
I was also considering no longer even posting but knowing that you care enough to stand up for what this forum is all about will keep me here, at least from time to time instead of completely revong my membership.
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Jes, I am so happy to hear that.. Proud of you little one for sticking with it.. So hard when you're not feeling well.. and to lose 15 pounds WHILE you're pregnant ( and I won't tell anyone how itty bitty you are..coz I think everyone thinks you are nine feet tall and invisible) takes it's toll on your system. You've been exhausted physically and emotionally and still have the stamina to go to work in an emergency care vet's office til midnight, take a train to school ( BIO CHEM??? GET OUT OF HERE!!) foster a new kid, take care of your old boy ( I mean Miles, not Eli) plan a wedding and on top of it all train and retrain and REtrain Steve.
I cannot tell you how much I admire you.. AAANNND you are a Faithful Forum Family member
I love you