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degarr's picture
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Is the Warlock MYTH getting stronger or is it just me.  About 2 years ago I had a neighbor who said both her Dobies were Warlock, about a month ago I met a man who told me he use to bread Dobies and that they were Warlocks, today I met a lady that said she has owned 20 Dobies and some were Warlocks.  I told her my big boy was from Germany.  She said oh is he a Warlock.  I can tell you I wanted to hit her, but I just told her that Warlock Dobies were all a myth, that Etjen was just a big boned boy.  I have not heard the name Warlock for a long, long time and now it seems that it is popping up all over the place.  Please tell me that I am just running into misinformed people and that this mess is not starting up again.

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I dont understand how you can have 20 DM and still not realize its a "myth" lol. On the flipside warlocks aren't myths, theyve been bred to increase the size of the DM, or thats what the peeps on this site repeat.

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You cant really blame people for not knowing, theres tons of info on each individual breed and some people dont invest the time on nit picky things, they just buy a dog for a companion and appreciate what it is.

I think it is a simple fact that most people believe what they hear and never question it. The warlock myth has been around so long that people just believe it. The same goes for "teacup" in toy breeds. I cringe whenever I hear either incorrect myth.

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Sorry Fitz, but you're wrong on teacup. I have a teacup pomeranian and my cousin who has a regular pomeranian, there exists a noticeable differance in size. Just like a regular mandarin and a mini manadarin, its a genetic mutation. You may brag all you want in regards to your sacred regular mandarin, but the fact remains the genes of the regular mandarin has been altered in someway to dramatically reduce the size. Another example is square watermelons and black watermelons. People dont fuss over "Warlocks" because they are myths, but how the degrade the health and overall Doberman bloodline. There do exist oversized dobermans and as such they are titled "Warlock". They may not be natural, but they do exist and they have been titled such for being outliers, the same applies to teacups. Again it is NOT a myth, they do exist and they possess different genes to the stereotypical mould, common sense would suggest that as such it would be fair to have a differing title to aid consumers etc in correctly identifying what they are seeking.

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I can understand your frustration regarding oversized dobermans (warlock) but critizing others for the teacup pom is outright naive and ignorant. If your husband asked you for a orange mandarin, would you lecture him how that is a "myth", an unethical practice which ruins both mandarins and oranges, I wager not. Like I said before, there are modifications in certain dog species which deserve criticism as they disregard the health of the animal, such as the pug, but there are others that dont, and above all else genetic modification is not a MYTH. People have been altering physical appearances of dogs for decades if not centuries.

Ask a breeder of toy poodles, or pomeranians (a good one) about teacups and they will tell you it is exactly the same!  Of course they are smaller - just like "warlocks" are bigger. It is unethical breeders who breed for either oversized or undersized in their respective breeds in order to sell something that is supposed to be "special" because it is different. It is not good either way for all kinds of reasons, including health. I'm not exactly ignorent when it comes to dogs - haha.

argh, looked up a very good explanation of "teacup" and was not able to load it - it you google "teacup myth", there is a good explanation of it on several pages. 

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The same argument can go against purebreed Doberman and Pomeranian owners, these dogs weren't handcrafted by a magical entity free from sin, they all descended from wild dogs, there bound to have issues regardless of how long they've been present and how meticulously well they've been looked after as a breed and bloodline. Your argument only applies to certain examples where genetic modification has seriously impaired and deteriorated the health of the animal. All dogs have been essentially modified, even the DOBERMAN. What, do you actually believe its a natural trait for dogs to be as small as even regular poms, HELL NO. The underlying difference as I seem to repeat over and over again, is at what cost/price does it come at? It seems your argument would support a legitimate strong bloodline/purebreed pug as long as there are no alterations to its current genes, that mindset is seriously flawed.

P.S Dont take this personally, judging purely from your passion and pictures Its easy to see the devotion to the Doberman breed and your personal positive impact you've had on them. But as someone said before on these forums, when misinformation is stated you will be corrected.

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Joined: 2016-11-29

:) I'm not a dog professional by any means, all im doing are stating the facts which just happened to counter your beliefs.

again, check real facts, not what the greeders who produce both oversized and undersized dogs WANT you to believe. I've seen with my own eyes how a poorly produced oversized Doberman can suffer - I've seen many in rescue. I've seen a few over standard Dobermans that are lovely, but no one was trying to make them larger and they were from good breeders - no one called them "warlocks" - they were simply over the standard for size. 

I've also talked to reputable breeders of toy dogs that are sickened by what happens when you try to make a very small breed even smaller - no reputable breeder looks to make their toy breed smaller than the standard for very good reasons. The people who deliberately do this do not have a true love for the breed they are producing carelessly - abuse and neglect too often goes hand in hand with these kinds of breeders. 

What you are stating as facts, are indeed not. Just as there is no such breed as a "Doodleman" (Poodle x Doberman), there is also no such breed as a teacup anything, or a warlock Doberman. They are marketing gimmicks to sell grossely undersized or oversized dogs that often suffer as a result of greed. No true lover of any breed should want to see a mockery made of what that breed is supposed to be. Yes, creating a breed to suit a specific purpose took work and dedication - slight changes occure over the generations.... some better a breed and some don't. A grossly oversized Doberman loses speed and agility as a personal protection dog - not to mention the physical issues that occur such as more blown knees, early onset arthritis, reduced lifespan..... An undersized toy breed will have an even higher prevalence of physical issues that can plague those breeds - not to mention the difficulty they have in actually birthing puppies... then the mortality rate of those puppies. 

It's not my intention to be argumentative, I just really hate seeing people taken in by these types of breeders and thinking that what they are doing is ok. I hate seeing misinformation spread even more and will always speak up. I urge people to do their research - most breeds have a parent club with a website and often try to educate the public on such issues as warlocks or teacups. What I am stating are not just MY beliefs, it is what I know to be true from research, 24 years in my breed, and about 14 years of showing Dobermans, and getting to know & talking to people in many breeds. I'm not an expert on toy breeds by any means, but I know experts on small/toy breeds that have many decades of experience in showing & breeding champions.  Just like Doberman people cringe when they hear the term "warlock", toy people cringe when they hear "teacup". 

I think what I don't understand is your absolute insistence that teacups and warlocks are a real thing - I'm wondering what your motivation is. 

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I agree that the "warlock" hinders the Doberman breed due to severe health issues and should NOT be promoted. It isn't a myth though, it is a oversized Doberman from genetic modification. How can a real physical entity be a myth. A myth is a lie, something that does not exist, instead of saying myth myth myth, passionate Doberman owners should make a consistent habit of understanding that these are oversized Dobermans, and as a result suffer physically and the practice/purchase should be ceased.

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As for the teacup Fitz I'm sorry to say the "Warlock" circumstance does NOT apply. Miniaturized Pomeranians don't suffer from the grim fate as the oversized Dobermans, so why should your friends critique the practice. Is it because they are in the game for financial benefits, because there is absolutely no other conclusion I can come too, or maybe the teacups steal the competition away and their left with nothing but the taste of salt in their bitter mouths? Now when I speak of teacup Im only referring to the Pomeranian, I cant comment on other dog species. She's in tip top shape at the age of 5 years and I'll wager my house + Australian citizenship that she lives through the double digits. Like all dog species there's bound to be problems, I'll give you some solid advive, these teacup pom "professionals" are talking garbage.

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On another note, in most instances beside the few exceptions, smaller dogs have greater life expectancy than their bigger sized family. If you want to prove your case show me cold hard evidence that the teacup pomeranian suffers from excess health problems than the regular pom.

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I rest my case, until there is actual scientific study/evidence that you can bring to the table for the teacup pom lets end the discussion here.

Ah, I see that you have a "teacup" Pom..... I get it now. Hard to admit that you got taken in when you have one - the facts don't change just because you want to believe that what you have was not produced by someone who is most likely less than ethical. Enjoy your dog - I've got nothing against the dogs themselves as they didn't have any say. Plenty of people have been taken in by marketing gimmicks - what is important, is that we learn and move on from there. 

As far as the "Warlock" Doberman, over sized is over sized - it is not a special off-shoot of the Doberman. There is a myth about the "warlock" decending from one dog. Unfortunately for the myth, the actual dog was not oversized and the over sized dogs did not decend from him. "Warlocks", "King", or any other name you care to call them by ..... they are basically a marketing gimmick by unscrupulous breeders to sell oversized Dobermans to people who think that bigger is better and who didn't do their research. 

I'm done too - I'm here to educate..... and if people refuse to learn, then that is on them. What I really refuse to do is let someone spread misinformation without correcting them - the people who read this will hopefully do some research of their own if they are unsure what to believe. Peace.

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What are you saying? It's like as if you're not even reading the posts im making. I'm not supporting the "Warlock" Doberman, the only argument I'm making is they do exist from the sole intention of being oversized, I never mentioned whether they are in the standard measurements for what a Doberman should be and I haven't overlooked the health complications they've adopted. That isn't to say they don't exist, I don't know why that concept is so hard to grasp. The only wrongdoing here undertaken is the two sided coin, as a consequence for having a oversized doberman the odds of suffering health complications is high, its really common sense, a bigger body on the same average to medium sized frame is going to cause joint issues from excess weight etc. Do these Doberman derive from the original mould of genetics and bloodline, are they what dobermans are meant to be, absolutely not. As you said, they are nothing but oversized Doberman slapped with a big name. The only way this can fool people is if they believe this is a natural and healthy trait, but as we all know a google search will bring all the info you need.

Know to the teacup pom, as of yet you haven't brought any compelling evidence to the table as to why the teacup pom has suffered from being downsized, we've discussed other species which have but I haven't seen you bring cold hard facts to the table. Unlike the "Warlock" the undersized pom has a smaller body frame so its joints arent going to buckle under the load. If the breed is flawed so then be it and I will take it as such, but when someone makes an argument without any compelling evidence and facts, you will be dismissed as such. As for the owners I wasn't present during the purchase so I cannot comment.

"People refuse to learn", I'm one of the most open minded people there is, I learnt of the "Warlock" double edged sword from this forum and some of that most likely came from you, however when you say it doesn't exist its like saying orange/mandarins dont exist. Oversized Dobermans do exist and they have been titled "Warlock" Although the name is a marketing strategy to fool unsuspecting buyers, after all no ones going to advertise oversized dogs. It seems your whole grife is with a title, but you're struggling at clarification.

I'm only struggling because I don't feel like retyping whole articles and it seems that I can't copy and paste anymore on this forum. I'm advising people to google it and do their research. It is better to read it for yourself then have someone else try to tell it as a 3rd person.

glengate's picture
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I'm with Fitzmar on this.  

The myth essentially is that people believe that what they call Warlock Dobermans or teacup anythings are a distinct breed, when they are not.  They are simply oversized or undersized individuals within their breed, and often the result of poor breeding practices or misguided breeding practices.  

One of my past Dobermans was oversized.  I called him a Doberman - that's what he was. That's what his registration paper said.  I didn't go around making him out to be something he wasn't by calling him some gimmicky name.  I cringe whenever I see anyone calling their dog by something other than it is.  You've got a pomeranian - that's all.  

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I agree, teacups are undersized and warlocks are oversized to the averages, whether this is classified as poor breeding practices, why should it be criticized unless there are consequences to its health, in this case the Warlock is and that's why it's shunned by the community. My issue is not for the support of the warlock but Fitz categorizing the teacup in the same boat when they do not have sub-par health conditions to their regular sized poms. And please don't forget you have absolutely no proof of verifying the condition of the dogs used to found the breed whatsoever from the original birth of the Doberman, so it's essentially hypocrisy when you criticize others for modifying the breeds (although there are EXCEPTIONS TO THIS) << NOTE.

Remember folks, im on the same side, with the Doberman genetically modifying to oversize only serves the dogs a detriment, and due to the subsequent health issues degrades the bloodline of the Doberman. Glengate maybe you can find evidence that the undersizing of the teacup pom suffers from health issues, ill be more than happy to accept the outcome. On another note when both of you speak of modification of dogs whether its altering the size is the only concern/issue health?

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Glengate I agree, I don't know who would think they are a distinctive breed, the title aids in correctly identifying the relevant size, although some people who have different priorities may unfortunately skewer the simple truths behind this which is undeniably a bad practice.

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What I meant to say there ARE oversized and undersized breeds, when I told Fitzmar there are "Warlocks" I wasn't arguing that they are a distinctive or speacial breed within the Doberman, only that they are larger (this can be from bad breeding practices). The only thing that I can't agree is her comment on the teacup poms, but you're both welcome to show me any evidence that the reduction in size for the poms has had subsequent health issues like Fitz keeps on persisting. Regardless Fitz has impacted the Doberman breed very positively so you have my commendation on that, I thought you might appreciate the compliment after all my arguments lol.

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Regardless I'm getting sick of hearing myself, im guessing its bye bye from this thread for me. If you do have health issues for the pom being downsized please do add it below :)

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I found several articles on health issues in undersized pomeranians without too much trouble.  I don't really see why Fitzmar or I have to produce them for you.  I think you can feel free to educate yourself, or not.

Thumper's picture
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The average pomeranian is said to be anywhere between 1.9 to 3.5kgs. That being said anything under the average weight would be too light to even consider a healthy standard. A teacup pomeranian is a pomeranian which tends to be on the lighter side of the scale, but within the standard. My teacup pomeranian is far smaller both in height, width and weight in comparison to my cousins but still falls within the healthy averages. There is a noticeable differance between the two and as such the term teacup is more than justified. This isn't a distinctive breed, but it has DISTINCTIVE CHARACTERISTICS and has a special label so consumers who are in search for this specific dog can find it. Honestly, it brings me so much satisfaction owning misinformed people, so much.

You don't see why you would need to produce any evidence, are you impaired, you and fitz are trying to make a statement, a argument, a point, you are required to produce evidence to support and re-enforce your your opinion, or it will just be that, an opinion without any merit. The conversation is being held on a public forum, through a public thread. There are countless morons who spew absolute crap on the internet and the only form of accountability is so provide PROOF, this has been the standard since the birth of the net. And don't give me that crap that there are several articles, I can go write up as much as my heart desires and post it on the net, the difference is again EVIDENCE. Jeez you people don't listen.

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Perfection Perfection Perfection is a obsessive compulsive disorder, "this MUST be 10cm in height and 6.6cm in width, a micrometer greater or smaller is an abomination" That's all I hear from you Glengate and Fitzmar.

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With all due respect, this is a Doberman forum.  And for what it's worth, you are just writing up your opinions on the internet so I'm not sure why you think that's any different than the articles we could produce for you.  

I'm done with this thread, have said my piece.  I believe in the breed standards.  They were created for form, function, and health and I don't believe in toying with them to meet market demand and to line pockets.  I don't believe in trying to capitalize on runt puppies.  I don't believe  in trying to capitalize on oversized dogs.  Both should be removed from breeding programs.  

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I agree with Fitzmar.  Unfortunately, some breeds have been bred to change the standard over the years.  I had a pom when I was a little girl who weighed approximately 15-18 lbs.  That was the norm then (back in the old days).  Now they've been bred into tiny yappers.  Backyard breeders have ruined many great dogs.  Labs and Golden Retrievers now are very prone to cancer and hip displasia.  My sweet Rose (Dobe) dropped dead at age 5.  I credit Fitzmar with giving me better infomation about Dobermans than her vet.  We currently have an Airedale terrier (terror) puppy (almost 6 months) and a Papillon/chihuahua I adopted from an animal shelter.  I still miss my Rose and would love to have another Doberman.  The Airedale is my son's dog, and I don't know if I'll make it to his 5th birthday when they start to settle down!

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P.S.  I still like to read comments on this site even though I no longer have a Dobe.  I love the breed for their beauty and temperament and hope one day to have another.

Thumper, I'm not sure why you are so adverse to looking up some articles about "teacup" toy breeds written by reputable sources. I'd be happy to post them here but do not seem to be able to do so - I tried. 

That said, I'm done arguing with you..... the old quote, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink" definately applies to this thread.

I've got nothing against Pom's. One of my co-owned GCh males lives with 4 toy dogs - two of them are Poms, and very cute. They are normal sized and small enough.

Thumper's picture
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http://www.petpom.com/miniature-pomeranians

However, this term may be used by breeders as a verb (meaningful small) to describe a Pomeranian that falls on the low end of the accepted weight scale. These would be 3 or 4 lb. Poms (1.36 -1.81 kg).

What is not acceptable, would be a breeder who purposefully breeds unethically, to produce dogs that are a smaller size than the established standard that is considered safe; These would be smaller than 3 lb.(1.36 kg) dogs.

Glengate, Fitzmar get out the notepad and start writing. This was the first article on teacup pom issues.

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I wasn't going to respond, but there was all talk and no fact, so I did exactly that, research.

DOGMAN45's picture
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    I'd never heard of Warlock until my AKC pup from a reputable breeder grew to be extra large.  Zeke is taller than the breed standard.  A large beauty, Zeke gets compliments on his good looks all the time.  Many don't know that he's a Dobe because he has natural ears.  I heard a couple times that he must be a Warlock.  I did not know what they were talking about.  There was a famous standard Doberman champion many years ago named Warlock.  There were stories that during the seventies some breeders tried to breed extra large Dobes refered to as Warlocks.  Don't know where Zeke's large size came from but I try not to hold it against him. 

Thumper, you seem to have proven my point with that article. I read several of them, but for some reason was not able to post them here..... not sure what I was doing wrong.

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I've owned several dobermans in the past. Currently, my European male (Jack) weighs 150 lbs.  He was purchased from a very reputable breeder who had imported his parents from Poland and Estonia, and they are of normal size.  This breeder had no intentions of producing extra large dobermans and Jack's increasing size came as a shock to all.  (The other pups in his litter grew to normal size.) Jack is a fluke of nature and has far outgrown his father. While Jack is not fat, he is definitely heavy boned.  He is a very active dog, and always hungry.  My vet recently did labwork and we discovered that Jack has a thyroid problem and he has just begun taking levothyroxine. We expect him to actually lose weight as a result and time will tell.  The funny thing is that he has no clue how big he is.  Jack is huge to say the least, and I weigh only 100 lbs.  Last summer, he accidently stepped on top of my foot and fractured it. He's the biggest baby I've ever known, and will actually hide behind me at any hint of drama or potential trouble.  Of course, he's a "lap baby" too.  Night time is quite an experience as Jack sleeps in bed between my husband and I.  (I feel like I share a bed with 2 adult men.)  I love my big boy just the way he is.

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Pet Profiles

I'm not sure about the "size thing." However, the Warlock bloodline is highly prestigious. Aguably, Barong the Warlock is considered by many within the hierarchy of the doberman world the greatest champion of all time. Aside from his numerous championships, Barong the Warlock sired 25 AKC champions and Canadian and Cuban champions as well.

Barong the Warlock 1955

http://www.dobermann-pedigrees.com/borongthewarlock.htm

 

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Someone asked me once if Stryker was a warlock. As Stryker is not even a Doberman, I didn't know anything about the warlock issue, and thought they were asking me of he was magic.

Ch. Barong The Warlock may be where the name "warlock" came from, but he himself was not oversized. 

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    That's where the confusion comes from.  There was the Doberman showdog champion named Warlock, who was probably the most famous single Doberman ever, and then the stories of the the oversized Dobermans called warlocks.   I had not heard of either until a couple of people asked about my male Dobe being a warlock.  In my case it was due to the size. I doubt that many have heard of the famous champion but many have heard of the large Dobermans.  

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wow interesting, I have heard both terms warlock and teacup the issue for both is that it is a "descriptive" term used by the general public to identify the size of a dog it is NOT a term recognized by breeders/show staff/AKC

as the breeders here have stated there is a standard that one goes by and if the dog does not meet those standards then the only definition recognized is over or under sized there is no cute name or intimidating name used to identify them

yes the terms teacup and warlock are out there in general use but they mean nothing to the showers and breeders as there is no standard attributed to them because they are just over or under sized in comparison to accepted standard

if there is a standard size recognized by AKC for Teacup or Warlock I would enjoy seeing those please share if you have that information