SearchGetting really frutrated. A new doberdoggie may not be in future after all
Ok so as a lot of you know I'm looking long and hard for a Doberman to add to my family and have been contacting breeders and doing research. So, the problem is that, so far, no one will consider placing a puppy with my because I don't have a fenced yard. UHG!!! I am a responsible dog owner and my dogs have never gone outside without a leash, not even just to potty. I don't perimeter train because I don't believe perimeter training is effective and if the dog really wants to run off after something it can and probably will. Just because I don't have a fenced yard does NOT mean I am not worthy of a Doberman! I'm having the same problem with the rescues, its either because I have no fence or because I have a child under 8 yrs old. Whatever!!
I'm so frustrated and feeling defeated. I'm trying sooooo hard to avoid byb's and bad breeders, but what choice will have outside of just not owning a Doberman? It's not right. They might as well say "You aren't good enough to have one of my dogs." What are people like me suppose to do? I feel like just giving up. What is the point of continuing to do research and interview breeders if they are all going to say "Well, no fence-no dog"? It really ticks me off!
Ok, sorry for the rant, but I just needed to vent. It's no wonder so many people patronize bybs and puppy mills. No I am not going to do that, but it sure is tempting.
I know I can MOSTLY see their point of view. I just don't think it should be an automatic NO. Most of them have not even asked me any other questions. Its just "oh, no fence. I'm sorry I don't sell to people with no fence." They could at least complete the interview process. If they would just ask other questions instead of just ending it cut and dry, they could see that I am very responsible in all other areas, vet care, training, socialization, proper nutrition, exercise ect. If I'm responsibe in these areas then chances are pretty darn good that I'll be good with no having a fence.
At this very moment in time I don't have the option of putting up a fence. I rent my home. I have permission from my landlord to have a dog. I have a documentation from my doctor to have an ESA/companion animal and have been granted a reasonable accomodation from my landlord as is required by the Fair Housing Act. This is not info I like to share with just anyone as it personal, but it proves that I have permission from my landlord to have a dog regardless of breed. I spoke with her about putting up a fence and she said no because a fence is not a requirement for having a dog. Honestly, I have to agree with her. But anyway....I'm sure I would catch A LOT of flack here if I were to consider a byb, and well, I do want a healthy dog, I mean al least tested for vWD, Thyroid and cardio.
*Sigh*..........
Don't give up! I know it can be frustrating though. I too do not have a yard and think it's absolutely rididuclous if someone automatically says "no" without asking any other questions. Just because you have a fence doesn't mean you will be the best owner for a dog and i think a lot of people forget there's a lot more to owning a dog (specifically a doberman) that just owning a fence.
*edit*
Meant to say fenced yard :)
Putting one in this spring though since we moved into a brand new house. It does get old walking out in rain and cold weather to takes the dogs out.
No fenced yard, no doberman experience, and a small child... never having your dog off leash in the yard, ever? Not doing perimiter training because it doesn't work? If I was a breeder, I would be concerned about all of these things, not trying to give you a hard time, just being honest... The rescue I adopted from also had a fence policy, and I don't have a fenced yard, I had to convince them that I was dedicated enough and had the training know-how to make it work. So, moral of the story, you have a few things going against you in that post, but don't give up, because it is certainly possible.
I know exactly what you mean about trying to get a Doberman via a breeder or a rescue. But I also know that they want what is best for the dog. In Illinois the Illinois Doberman Rescue requires a fenced in yard, vet references, personal references’ and home visit to boot. When they came over they made sure the fence was in good repair and wanted to meet everyone in the home. I think it just goes to show how loyal Doberman caretakers are of their family members that they won’t even take a chance of losing a beloved dobie! Did I mention that you also have to have proof of monthly heart worm treatment?
KevinK: I understand your position and that these people don't know me, but I do have Doberman experience. I've owned 2 Dobes in the past. I am educated and experienced in owning and training dogs including Dobermans. That is why it is so frustrating that they will not take any of my experience and ability into consideration. The only area I lack in is actually buying from a breeder. In the past I have mostly rescued/adopted from shelters. Tron I got from a byb for free. His full stoy is on his pet profile. My first Dobe was a 6 month old "free to good home" ad in the local paper. I would like to actually have a well bred healthy dog this time around. I got lucky with Tron, although he did bloat and had to have surgery to save his life, however any dog can bloat, it is not unique to the Doberman. My first Dobe died at the age of 2yrs of hemorrhaging that was later confirmed to be from vWD. That was devestating. I only had him for a year and a half.
The only thing most of the breeders and I have agreed on concerning fencing or lack thereof, is the perimeter training and they were the ones to bring it up stating it does not work and I agree with them. When I was a child living at home we had a couple dogs and did perimeter training and there were still times when the dog left the yard. To me, a small child is a toddler not a 6 yr old. My son has been around dogs from birth. My last Doberman Tron was still with us when my son was born as well as a rott/mastiff mix. My ex husband still has the rott/bull mastiff mix we had when my son was born and he sees her every weekend when he goes to his dads. My son is great with her. He has been taught how to properly interact with a dog and how to properly treat dogs and what not to do ect.
I don't get a chance to explain all this to the breeders because they cut me off at no-fence. I spoke with yet another breeder tonite just before adding this post and he could not get past the no fence thing and would not even let me say anything else, nor would he answer any of my questions. He would not even listen to anything I have to say. I found this to be an incredible turn off. He wouldn't even give me a chance, immediately deeming me not worthy just because I had no fence.
I'm starting to feel like no matter what I say most breeders still will not sell to me. I have even offered vet references and personal references, but still no deal.
It's not fair to pass judgment on someone without at least thoroughly checking them out first, a courtesy I have not had from any of the breeders I have spoke with.
Okay then...Just a shot in the dark...Agree with them.
"Do you have a fenced yard?" Yes.
Unless they're doing home checks, there's no reason you can't just...Agree.
If you truly believe that you won't lose your dog or need a fenced yard to own one, then there'll be no trouble if you DON'T have a fenced yard. My front garden isn't fully fences (there's no fence leading striaght up to the road - just my car port) and my dogs can be off lead in there. I think they've learned to respect the opening to freedom. "PERSON! WOO-WOO-WOO...oof! Car..." It's not really the same, because I have a fully fenced back garden where the dogs can go out to "hurry up" and just smell the world go by.
Have you ever lived with a Dobie, without having a fenced yard? Because I'm pretty sure when he's passed the puppy stage, you're going to get tired of standing in the yard with him. It takes longer, but when kids turn 8, they don't still need their parents to hold their hand in the bathroom. When dogs turn 8 and they don't have a fenced yard, someone needs to be at the other end of the leash.
However, if you feel completely confident without a yard (which, tbh, I don't think you do) then agreeing with what the breeder asks shouldn't prove to be problematic at all. Other than the fact you've just lied- sorry, agreed, to your breeder, LOL. I didn't keep in close contact with Kay's breeder. I'm not sure how many of us really do keep in contact with our dogs breeders'.
*Shields from the forces which shall fall...*
Maybe you could try a rescue. Not one of these "you have to match all of our standards, or else no dog for you" rescues. They're unrealistic...I can understand it, but they want people to rescue a dog, and then they make it so hard, and then they complain that nobody rescues their dogs. *rant over* you could try an in, give me your preferences, lets see the dogs, I like that one, out rescue. Again, depends how confident you feel with your choices.
Or...You could go to a "pet" breeder. They aren't the best, nor the worst. Not bothered about titles, just bothered about temperaments and health. That's a good pet breeder, but there's a thin line between "Pet Breeder" and "BYB Breeder"...Maybe do a little more research, because choosing where to get the dog is proving a bit tricky. Haven't you only been looking for a dog for a few days? Whether it's been a few days or a few months, you're moving pretty quickly. Yesterday you asked about European and American lines. Have you already decided what one you're going with? You're talking to breeders, so you must have..?
Oh, hey! Buy a piece of fencing. "Do you have a fence in your yard?" Yes, yes I do. LOL.
I have owned dogs, including a Doberman without a fence and I'm perfectly fine with having to be out with them at all times. I've done it in the past with success and I'm prepared to do it again. I have been searching for more than a few days. I started looking long before I posted here. I wanted to buy from a reputable breeder this time around and since many don't advertise I though a Doberman forum could be a great resource for finding a good breeder. So, I posted to see if anyone knew of a good breeder in my area and to get feedback on some of the breeders I did find. I continued researching and found a couple more a little further away.
I was trying to be completely honest. I have always felt that honesty builds trust. Telling them I have a fence when I don't is lieing. No, they are not doing a home check, but I still couldn't jusify lieing about anything. I would be upset if they lied to me about something. Perhaps, its something I should consider since I am confident in my willingness, dedication and abilities to properly care for the pup without a fence.
I was asking about American vs European because I wanted to be fully educated about their differences in temperament before I made the decision to contact the breeder of a Euro dog. Until that point I had only been considering American dogs.
I totally agree with you about the "you have to meet all our standards" rescues being unrealistic. Then they complain that they can't move dogs and the dogs are in rescue for months and months before the rescue finds them the "perfect" home. Unfortunately, all the Dobe rescues in my area are like that. I went that route before deciding to try to buy from a breeder. For the majority of them it was a no because I have a child under 8yrs old, the one I did find that is ok with the child is not ok with not having a fence. Ugh, whatever!
As far as deciding on American vs European...I think I am going to stick with American.
I think I just will have to buy a piece of fencing like you said and then..."do you have a fence?" "oh yes, yes I have a fence!" LOL!
Have you looked at Gorrmae? Idk if they have a litter anytime soon, but if your willing to wait for a pup, I suggest contacting them.
Ktron, I agree with some of the above... The thing we have to remember, one of the biggest reasons why dogs turn up in shelters, rescues, kill facilities, etc? They ran out of the yard and never came back. This is why typically there are strict fence rules, especially from shelters & rescues. One of the other biggest reasons is that people with children turn in their dogs because they don't have the time. Sometimes it seems unfair, but these are in place for a reason...
What kind of dog experience do you have, what training methods are you familiar with, do you have any experience in any dog sports? These are things that will work in your favor. If you don't know multiple training methods inside out, learn them. It will go a long way, and put you in a much better position.
I also believe in being honest... How would you feel if the rescue or breeder was not honest? Suppose you have cats, and they say the dog is fine with cats, then you come home to dead cats the next day? Then you find out that your dog hates and wants to kill every cat they see? That's the same way the breeder or rescue would feel if you said you had a fence but didn't, especially if the dog got away one day.
K-Tron, I am so sorry to hear about your problems with acquiring your Doberman. It just seems outrageous. I can however, see their point. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I do understand.
I hope that things work out for you. You sound as if you'd make a great Doberparent.. but please for your own sake. Stick to the truth.
The suggestion that you lie to the breeders.. that just made me see red. Anytime a member here on Gentle Doberman gives advice that is irresponsible or in any way detrimental to the integrity of Doberman owners everywhere; is unconscionable.
DobiewanKenobi.... Shame on you!
And I would also have to say that it is a tremendous amount of work to have a dog without a fence... I think most would consider my dog to be extremely obedient, she NEVER blows off commands, and listens right away. Simply put, it would not be possible to exercise her sufficiently and tire her out if she was on leash. Just not going to happen. She needs to do lots of running, and really stretch her legs. We've had her about a year and a half, we train every day, and I KNOW she's not leaving the yard, but I would never, ever leave her out unnatended either. So yes, it's a tremendous time commitment, even if your dog is very obedient and you don't have to worry about it. Something to think about, how do you plan to exercise your doberman, if you plan to keep him/her leashed, and you have a young child? Can you fence a portion of the yard at least?
Look the breeders and rescue operators are trying to be responsible. In case of a rescue they don’t want to rehome a dog into a situation that could end up with the dog in a shelter or someone being hurt. If they say no to children fewer than 8 it may be because the dog likes to play rough or they feel has some sort of temperament issue. They honestly are trying to find these dogs forever homes. If you are serious about getting a Doberman and are renting a house see if you would be able to put up a fence yourself and have the cost taken out of your rent. Work to finding a solution even if it means finding another home to rent or even buy. It took me 2 years before I was in the right situation to get a dobie and I know it was worth the wait. If the landlord won’t work towards a deal where you can have the cost of a fence taken out of your rent in the form of a reduced rent then you should find a new home. If you honestly want a Doberman bad enough you would shoulder the cost and responsibility of erecting a fence even if it meant you didn’t get reduced rent.
it's tough -- I don't envy the breeder's duty to place dogs in the 'right' homes. I don't think I could do it at all if I were in their shoes but I'm probably just too skeptical of people to have that responsibility.
I feel your pain though K, I also have bad credentials in breeder's eyes -- live in city, no back yard at all. But, 14 months in and we're doing great, all it takes is all my free time and all my expendable income -- other than that -- no biggie;)
I think it's all been said already - don't give up, you'll find the right place and the right dog. and as Kate already said DO NOT lie to them. They are probably doing to come by your house at some piont and if you told me you had a fence and obviously don't I would wonder how much else you lied about and immediately be done with you. Dishonestly is never the way to go about doing something...
Glad I put the shields up.
If lying isn't an option, and you can't rescue, and breeders want you to have a fence, then obviously your only option is to put up a fence. If you can't put up a fence, you can't lie, you can't rescue, then you won't be able to get a Doberman.
Have you looked at your garden, maybe you can just put up small area of fecing. My section is only half fenced. Not just to stop your dog getting out, but to stop other dogs from calling by? Good luck anyway.
Ad to kevin ^ re kill facillities.....just watched 'earthlings' or attempted the first 15 mins....didnt realise things were so bad. Brrrrrrrr. :(
Thanks Lady Kate, Lori and D and Evie. I won't give up. I'm prepare for all the work involved in having a dog with no fence. I've done it before, I'll do it again. I agree about lieing LK, that's why I was honest with all of them from the get go. My son and I are very active and we want our Dobie to be a big part of our active lifestyle.
I, too understand where the breeders are coming from, but what irritated me was they (breeders) wouldn't even let me plead my case so to speak. They wouldn't even hear me out. How are they suppose to know what experience I have if they won't let me tell them about it?
KevinK: I really enjoy obedience training and the training method I use is positive reinforcement and consistency and have had great success. Everyone has always commented on how well my dogs were behaved. Some people even asked me where I went for obedience training and I explained that I train at home. I start with a treat and praise as a reward, but wean the food reward out quite quickly and use praise for a job well done as the reward. Dobes are so eager to please that praise is more than enough. I have trained all my dogs including my past two Dobes in my home. I like to go to the park, and places outside the home to work on obedience training with distractions. I train the basics in German (not that it matters I guess) using schutzhund commands. I really like schuzhund, but don't feel comfortable with the bite work. I would NEVER attempt to train for protection or bite work, not even with a professional trainer. I definitely don't have the training experience level needed for that and I don't want a protection trained dog. I like the obedience part of schutzhund and borrowed the commands for the basics to use when I train at home. That's why I have an interest in obedience trials. I think it would be awesome to do obedience trials with our new dog. I heard once that there are schutzhund trials in the US that don't include the bite work, but I've not researched that yet. I also want to complete the CGC with our Dobe (if we are ever able to get one). I like to train fun tricks too, like high 5, right paw-left paw, stick 'em up, and say Grace. Is there another training method you would recommend I learn. I'm always willing to learn new training methods. I don't like physical or harsh methods though.
Perhaps, you can make an appointment with a breeder before getting into specifics? When people are face to face it is much harder to blow someone off. Bring pictures of your home and yard, references, the note from your landlord, etc (copies) that you can leave with them so they can have a chance to review it.
I spent last year looking for work and the hardest part is getting the interview! Talk about your passion for OB training and your past experience to get a foot in the door and then once you are there, face to face, get into the specifics. A breeder may be able to work with you on what improvements you came make to the yard to make the situation work. IDK... just a suggestion!
In terms of training methods, I also prefer to not use harsh methods. I use positive reinforcement, positive and negative punishment, luring, free-shaping, and marker training. I like to use a combination of techniques depending on what I'm doing.
hi K, maybe I am off base here and this may not be acceptable but what about those portable fences? There are some pretty large sized ones out there, I'm not sure how large your yard is but a portable fence can be erected and taken down whenever you like, sort of a jumbo sized crate, it would not be as expensive as putting up a full perimeter fence. I have not used one but maybe its a consideration. I too went to rescue orgs before going to a shelter, I live in the city, downtown Chicago no less and rescues see this as an immediate red flag. My saving grace is that I have a small (very small) but fenced yard and a large dog friendly park across from me. As Ronan mentioned in Illinois rescues and/or breeders are tough but they are looking out for the best interest of the dog which is most understandable.
Good luck and don't give up, it took me about six months before I settled on Loki, although he was not my first choice (I wanted a Malamute) the thought...that he was Dobie appealed to me, I owned one many years ago. Of course in hindsight no one really had a clue what he was, which today is more appealing. I love the guessing games people play in trying to figure out the many breeds he may be mixed with.
Hi cynfully2. I will have to check into the portable fence system. That is a great idea! Thanks for sharing. I wonder how sturdy they are.
I think your Loki is just precious and I'm so glad you were able to have him.
Sturdy isn't really the point ;) the point IS you can honestly say you have a fenced area of your yard for your dog....and if ever there's a moment your pup needs out and you can't be there or need to run inside a moment you can leave them there safely. I'd bet something like that would satisfy a breeder or rescue...
Hey.. we had one of those while we were living in the small townhouse. You can pick them up at Home Depot for not a whole lot of $'s. They are sturdy and we reinforced with those metal poles. You can buy it by the yard and just roll it back up when you're finished.. Am posting a picture that just shows a little edge there on the outside of the patio. We we built it to about 20x20.
Wow Lady Kate, your back yard looks beautiful and I see palm trees!! Where do you live? I used to live in Sarasota, FL and I miss it soooo much. After I get done with school (I got 2 more years left until I graduate with my Bachelor's) I want to move back down to FL.
Anyway....I see what you mean about the temporary fence. I am definitely going to look into that. Thanks for posting the picture 
AND I got GOOD news tonite. I spoke with Windsong Dobermans again and she has approved me to purchase a pup!!!!! YAY!!!! I'm sooooo happy. We are going to look at a red male this Saturday. I have comunicated a lot with her and she said she is comfortable with me and my level of experience and feels that I would be a good responsible owner. I took some of you guy's advice and told her about my training methods and previous dog owning experience and gave her vet references. It was so nice that she would actually listen. She was initially uncomfortable with the no fence thing, but after talking with her she said yes. I am going to attempt to post the pics of his parents. Ha, we'll see if I succeed, lol
Yay! I did it. This is the red pup's sire.
AM/INT/UKC Champion Fayek's Prime Contender
This the pup's Dam.
INT/UKC Champion Windsong's The Spy Who Loved Me
I'm so excited and can't wait to meet the pup. She was telling my all about him the good and the bad and I think he will be a good fit for us. I'll keep everyone posted 
Congrats, I'm so happy for you!!!
Congrats! Good thing you didn't give up, you now have a beautiful redhead alloted for yourself :D
Thanks guys, I'm giddy LOL! I just wanted to say thanks to all of you for your input and support. I feel like I'm starting to get to know some of you :) and thats really cool.
Hey KevinK: I wanted to ask you about some of your training methods. I've heard of luring and free-shaping, but really know nothing about them. Is there a good book or internet source I could utilize to learn more? What is the basis for these two training method? What is the training method you prefer the most, or does it depend on the dog and its particular learning style? I'm always looking to learn more about obedience training methods and am open to learning about other methods.
Congratulations on your new puppy, so glad to worked out for you. Now the fun starts !
Let the good times roll.
GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!
I will be sure to let you guys know how it goes tomorrow. Atley (my son) and I have been thinking of names. Atley LOVES NASCAR and NHRA drag racing and he wants to name the pup Speed or Race, lol! I kinda like Race
Yahhh!! That's awesome!! Can't wait to hear all about it. The parents are gorgeous! Take some pictures while you're there!
K-Tron.. am just thrilled for you..Your new pup's parents are stunning... please start taking pictures NOW.... I think your son's idea for a name is wonderful.I can only imagine how delighted you are.
So glad you joined the Forum. I think you will find it to be full of suggestions, advice and friendly people who want nothing more than to love our Dobes.
The first two months that we had Sofia, we did not have any type of fencing. It was doable but inconvenient... We put up the temporary fencing and lived with that for a year or so til we found the new house that we're now living in and started the year long renovation. It has a great wall that backs up to a golf course,.... but here's the kicker.. Lots and lots of critters ( including wild cats, coyotes, HUGE vultures and a cougar) live here as well... they prowl and patrol and are just glorious..They all tolerate everyone else ( except the rabbits...They all hate the rabbits.. and it's interesting to watch the bunny population ebb and flow...). so now, even though Sofia has a big back yard, fully fenced... we STILL go out with her...her prey drive is very strong and there's no doubt in my mind she would take off after one of those cats.
We live in Baja Mexico... all the stories about Sofia, AND her exploits are here on the Forum...She is known as the DoberDiva
Thanks Kate!! Oh my gosh, yes we are super delighted. Atley keeps asking if its time to go yet, lol. I'm going to take the camera with me and take some pictures of our meeting.
Wow, Baja, Mexico! I hear its beautiful there. How awesome that you have a diversity of wildlife present. I would love that. I live in boring Ohio, lol. We don't have cool wildlife here. No, jk, I enjoy Ohio's wildlife, but how cool it would be to see a cougar in it's natural environment. I am a photography major in school right now and nature photography is my area of concentration. I have an AAB in Travel and Hospitality Management as well. I would have a hay-day in Baja!! Someday I want to photograph the rainforests of the world 
Sofia is just absolutely stunning Kate. When I was working as a vet tech I rarely saw a blue or fawn that didn't have CDA and a terrible coat. Sofia looks great! It's so nice to see a fawn with a nice beautiful coat! I know good coated blues and fawns are out there, just not many of them.
That is incredible news to start off your New Year! I'm so glad that your honestly and persistance won out...:) congrats and yes we must have pics.
It's official, he's ours!!! Atley wanted so bad to bring him home today, and well, honestly I did too, but we must wait until the time is right :)
In all the excitment of meeting him and talking with the breeder, I forgot to get the camera out of the car, so you'll all have to wait for pics. Sorry, lol.
Oh I am so excited for you! I just love those red boys! Try to take one picture a day for his first year. Then you can watch him grow whenever you want!
Oh what a wonderful way to start 2012!! K-Tron we are all so happy for you.. When you met the little guy in person did "Race" still sound like the right name?
Thank you for such kind words about Sofia. She is a very special girl and has more personality than most people I know. ( LOL) she is my muse and is helping to write her own book that I hope to get published within the year.. (The Life and Times of a DoberDiva)
The beauty of Mexico is breathtaking. We live not far from the ocean and can hear the waves crashing on the cliffs. Seeing a cruise boat go by at night is always fun, and the hoots of the owls, screech of a hawk and call of the coyotes are fantastic!
I have a forum friend who takes weekly pictures with a can of Coca-Cola sitting next to the pup for comparison. SUCH fun to watch them grow
Buena Suerte para el perro!!
Thanks HarleyBear!! I'm excited to have a red boy. My previous two Dobes we both black, so I'm excited about having a "horse of a different color". What a great idea to take 1 picture a day. I like to take lots of pictures. It's so fun to look back on them later. I have an entire photo album dedicated to my son's first year of life. I think I will do that with our little pup too
Lady Kate, you know after meeting him "Race" did not seem to fit at, lol. He is too laid back and calm for a name like "Race". I think we are gonna have to come up with something different. He is a little cuddle bug. When they got him out Atley and I knealed down and he came up us and calmly sniffed us then he sat down and put his big ole paw on my leg and gave me the sweetest, softest doberpuppy kisses I ever had. Then he went over to Atley, sat down and put his big ole paw in Atley's lap and gave him very gentle kisses that barely even made contact with Atley's face. It was just too precious. He was very calm with Atley and didn't even jump up on him. I put the pup through my menagery of tests; messed with his paws, checked his teeth, picked him up and held him, touched his tail, and put my hands on pratically every part of his body and he was a trooper. None of it bothered him one bit.
Wow, sounds like I need to take a trip to Mexico!
Congrats! Cant wait to see the lil guy
That's great new K-Tron! Congrats!
Congrats on your little red boy and we need pictures!!!
Congrats on your new red boy. I definitely have a weakness for the reds. Of the 14 Dobes I have had over the years, 4 were males and of those, 3 (including my 4 mo. old Jake) have been red. My first male, Hans (1984-1995) was a red, and I have had a weakness for reds ever since.
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That is rough! Sorry to hear you're having a tough time. I don't have a fenced yard either - mind you I live in the middle of nowhere. I'm assuming you're in a city? I hate to say it...but maybe the best option would be to price out a fence? The breeders are just looking out for the best interest of the puppies (and their owners!) Having a dog without a fence increases the risks. It sucks but it's true. Even if you are really responsible and promise to always keep your dog leashed, there's no way for them to know that you'll stick to it. I'm just looking at it from their point of view.