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Hi everyone!

I am still learning so much about the breed as Harley grows.  But I have noticed a general trend.  Every time I meet a large doberman, GSD, or boxer that seems HUGE to me, the owner always tells me they are from European lines.

So is that true?  Is the standard in Europe larger (are they allowed to be taller and heavier across the pond)?  I already know they have different rules about docking and cropping. 

Is there one standard across all the European contries or is it based on each country?

And if that is the standard over there and we have a standard in the US, are they really the same breed?

I know that is a lot of questions, but I was just wondering....

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First of all, we have no mention of weight in the north American (American and Canadian) standards at all. 

AKAIK, and I could be wrong, the FCI standard is in place for all European countries.  I believe it does describe a weight ideal as well as height ideals.  I believe the height standard is pretty similar to the north American standards.  They do, however, allow for a slightly longer bitch, while the north American standard calls for square, and they also changed their standard for angulation of the front and rear.  The north American standards are allegedly closer to the orginal German standard than the current FCI standard, as I understand it. 

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The height standards are almost exactly the same in europe.  

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HarleyBear's picture
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You right! I just went to the AKC website and there was no mention of weight.  For some reason I thought it was 60-90lbs.  I wonder where I got that from?

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Very interesting indeed.  I looked on the first link, converted Kg to lbs. and it came out 70.5-75 lbs. for bitches and 80-99 for dogs.  That was NOT the AKC site.

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I LOVED the second link, very informative! 

So it sounds like it is safe to assume that they should be roughly the same? 

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Yes, they should be roughly the same.  People tend to think that euro dobes are much larger, and just like american dobes, it's only the case if they are bred out of the standard.

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Here is the UK Kennel Club breed standard for the Doberman

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/48

Whenever I've been at actual working events, the European Dobermans are not bigger or larger boned than the average American Doberman.  The European show lines do tend to be slightly larger than an American Doberman and their standard allows for that.  One thing to look at is that European show Dobermans are generally kept at a heavier weight - in the states we would consider the weight European show dogs are kept at to be fat. OTOH - the European working Doberman is not a large dog. They need to be quick and agile - most 30"+ & 100 + pound Dobermans would not compete well in the working world - nor would they hold up physically to the work. Bigger is certainly NOT better for a working sport Doberman.

The big huge "Euro" Dobermans that are popular here in the states could not even compete in most show rings in Europe as they would be disqualified there for being oversized. I personally think that European breeders are laughing all the way to the bank when they send their oversized Dobermans to the states for a big fee. 

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Thanks Scotty, very interesting!  

"The big huge "Euro" Dobermans that are popular here in the states could not even compete in most show rings in Europe as they would be disqualified there for being oversized. I personally think that European breeders are laughing all the way to the bank when they send their oversized Dobermans to the states for a big fee. " 

Fitzmar, you put it to so well, that is same conclusion I was coming to.

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We have been showing Cleo in the UK and some of the dobes that are coming into the showring here are being bred smaller, some are almost whippit like.   I pesonally don't like these smaller dobes, they just don't have the grace and stature that I think a doberman should have   Cleo is quite a big girl, not fat but graceful, lean but quite muscular and she has a beautiful outline, nice deep chest  (but I am probably biased !)  

I think you missed the word 'irresponsible' out of your sentence "The big huge "Euro" Dobermans that are popular here in the states could not even compete in most show rings in Europe as they would be disqualified there for being oversized. I personally think that European breeders are laughing all the way to the bank when they send their oversized Dobermans to the states for a big fee. "   Most responsible breeders would not breed oversized dobermans let alone for profit, they love the breed too much for that but there will always be those who spot a market and are happy to fill it.  

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Yep...  From what I have seen, at least the size standards in terms of height are pretty uniform across the board.  Some standards allow for a slightly longer build, here in the US square is preferred, meaning from withers to rear is same distance as withers to floor.  When I was reading the FCI standard the other day, which I'm not too familiar with, I think they allow for 5-10% longer than tall.  (going off memory, could be wrong there) But even with all of the slight differences, if a dog is bred to standard, size wise they shouldn't be much different.

I think many of the pro-euro and anti-american dobe people tend to look at US show dogs, who are young, not mature, so of course they're not going to be as substantial as a mature dog.  If you're going to compare an 18 month old US show dog to say a Baron Nike Renewal, (who is a world famous stud) it's not really a fair comparison. While the Euro dogs do sometimes tend to be bulkier, many times there's not that much of a difference, and there's plenty of dogs where someone wouldn't be able to tell which was which.  It's when you get to the extreme differences you notice the big change.  The young, dainty, refined american show dog is not going to look the same as a big, stocky, euro working dog.  These are opposite ends of the spectrum.  But, many of the euro working dogs that compete succesfully are no different in terms of size than the american dogs.  Once a doberman gets too far out of the standard sizewise, they lose some of their speed and agaility, which translates into less ability to work.  They are still amazing to watch, and their owners probably think they are extremely quick, agile, etc.  You wouldn't notice a difference unless you're very experienced, or unless you saw 2 dogs, (both healthy and have the necessary drives) 1 normal size, 1 oversized.  The bigger one may look more intimidating, but if you watch some sch, mondio, pp videos, you'll see most of the winning dogs are not big.  The belgian malinois is huge in protection, and If my life depended on it, I would gladly take the 70lb dog over the 90lb dog.  Maybe it doesn't look as intimidating, but when push comes to shove, I bet the smaller dog can move a heck of a lot better.

The main differences that are pretty consistent is that the euros work very hard for a good head, and they tend to have darker markings.

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Scotty, I have a question.  If the FCI is for most of Europe, do the judges discriminate about docking and cropping? I know I have read in one your posts that they allow tail docking, but not ear cropping where you are from.  I believe in England they don't allow either.  And I am not too sure what it is like in Germany.  Do the judges stay unbiased?  

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If the FCI is for most of Europe, do the judges discriminate about docking and cropping?

Judges are supposed to judge to the standard for the country in which they're judging.  If a judge from a non-cropping/non-docking country were in a country where the dogs are cropped and docked, how can they discriminate when probably every Doberman in their ring is cropped and docked? 

IMO, you don't really see discrimination about docking and cropping.  You're more likely to see discrimination against dilutes (blues and fawns) from judges from countries where that's against the standard. 

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Harleybear :  I can only speak for the UK where the rules are a bit ridiculous.   You cannot show any dog with cropped ears in the UK.  As far as docking is concerned, docking was banned in England, Wales and Scotland from 2007 unless it is done for  medical reasons.  

As far as showing is conerned:

England and Wales - You cannot show legally docked dogs at a show where the public pay an entrance fee - e.g. Crufts and 3 other championship shows and probably a few open shows but there are too many to know.  Some shows have stopped charging entry but charge a parking fee instead which gets round this stupid rule.   There is a campaign here called 'Docked and Denied' but shows like Crufts make too much money from charging the spectators so won't change.

Scotland and Ireland - Only legally docked dogs can be shown - you need proof from a vet that is was legally docked.    We have never been asked  yet for proof that Cleo is legally docked but we always carry the vet's letter with us just in case.

Cleo is legally docked as she was born in Ireland where docking is still legal (at the moment).  We chose to get a puppy from there as we prefer the docked look.  

Judges in the UK must abide by the UK Kennel Club rules and the entry forms usually states:  "In assessing dogs, judges must penalise any feature or exaggeration which they consider would be detrimental to the soundness, health and wellbeing of the dog".  

I haven't seen discrimination of dogs with or without tails, or colour, but to be honest I have not seen any dilute colours at any of the shows I have been to.    They are mostly black and tan or red & tan.

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Thanks Guys! It's all so interesting, isn't it?

Eventually, one of our (my husband and I) dreams is to breed and show dobermans.  Maybe buy a ranch in Los Olivos, CA..... someday.  In the meantime all we can do is learn more and more about the breed.

Scotty, that entrance fee rule is so interesting!  I too perfer the look of the dock tail... ears I could go either way.  Thanks again!

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From what I know Europeans are bigger and stockier, and females lines are leaner and sleeker. But that's all I know! lol

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Now are you comapring the standard Red Doberman to Standard American Doberman or  are these large Dobermans the king Red Doberman. I'm new to this as well and I understand it as two diffrent breed sizes. Eg: German Shephard and King German Shephard.

My adopted Red Dobie was imported for breeding and showing before he lost his family and needed a home.

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I believe they are just names (King, Warlock, European Doberman's) that appeal to people who want to breed for greed.  Sold mainly to drug dealers and other unscrupulous sorts.  They are not producing for health & temperament.  Good breeders don't need to advertise 145 pound dogs to get a buyer.  Good breeders

 

get their fame by word of mouth, and are wary who they sell to.  If the seller didn't ask the buyer a lot of personal history about you before letting you take home your new baby, they didn't care for the dog, only the cash.  

Also if you google the phrases used in their advertisement or there phone number and find they have had several litters from the same mother in the recent past, they are not concerned with the health of their own dog, let alone the puppies.  I have seen ads that had the mother's age as 8 months to 1 year old.  In comparison to human years, I would not be recommending my teen child to be reproducing at such a tender age.

Backyard Breeders & Greeders, Puppy Millers.  That is all they are.  I wish there was a law in place everywhere in North America that you have to spay or neuter or buy a license to breed.  A hefty fine for each litter born might make them think twice too.  Too many low life's thinking they an make a quick buck off their purebred dog.  I love when a pet shop shows me their poorly photo copied registration papers.  I was kicked out of a pet store for saying A.K.C or C.K.C papers are not photocopied.  You could see where the original dates were changed.  When I called the Canadian Kennle club, they told me that both the sire and dam listed would be 30+ years old!  

I know, I know, I ranted! Sorry everyone I apologize.  I hate to see any dog abused or exploited.

last word I promise size isn't everything, it's nothing

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You have a good point and your back yard breeders and greeders is exactually what created the bad image that follows this breed of dog. A few bad apples can spoil a whole bushel. I think there should be rules and regulations on breeding, however I don't think that it should limit a loving family from having a litter of pups before they spay their females. Some of the best pets come from loving homes. It's a hard thing to regulate, so we as people have to regulate it. If you don't buy from bad breeders they no longer have a reason to do this. I find people are more educated and capable of gathering information these days. Asking questions and looking for the right breeder is the answer. It's a bout supply & demand. If I ever get a puppy, I would care where it came from. However for me, I love rescue pets. I love giving a home to the homeless, less fortunate dogs. It's not there fault they don't have a loving home.

"....having a litter of pups before they spay their females...."  these puppies probably account for over 50% of all purebred dogs in shelters and rescues today.  There is NO need for a bitch to have a litter of puppies before being spayed and 99% of those bitches should never be bred for various reasons.  The vast majority of people who breed their pet know little to nothing about their breed standard, health testing, pedigree,  AND finding and supporting good homes for the life of the dog. 

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We acquired Shelbi from this perspective one litter produced from one female and one male both owners wanting to allow their dogs to have one litter.  This did not fair well for Shelbi's mom she only had two pups and she was anxiety ridden after birth and would drop milk whenever the puppies whimpered for her wherever she was at in the house.  Fortunately for us we knew the sire's parents and we received pick of the litter as they did not want another pup.  The Dam and the other female pup are both with the dam's owner and have been fixed, the male has been fixed, and Shelbi was fixed at 6 months.  We never had an interest in puppies just a puppy sired by this male.  We know him well and he is wonderful.  Some have awful opinions of this, but it worked for us as we have Shelbi.  I was just telling Lady Kate that if the day comes that something should happen to Shelbi I think I will seek my local Rescue for another Dobey.  I would not change a thing about how I acquired my Shelbi, as I could not ask for a more wonderful companion, but at least I can confirm for any who cares that this particular blood line ends with Shelbi and her Sister.  I have to say though that it is a shame because she is just like Milton her sire and they have great personalities, and thus far excellant health.  The sire is now five and Shelbi is 2 & 1/2.

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