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Ran across this on another forum;

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/parvovirus/

Then looked up this co-author;

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/parvovirus/

Then this co-author

http://mythicaldanes.com/healthtraining/vaccsCO.html

As I read these articles, it got me thinking and to me makes alot of sense although not my area of expertise. Are we causing the problems we're trying to avoid?

I would really like to hear others opinion on this, especially Jeshykai (Jess).

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Hey Gunny,  I actually read this recently too - Wendy sent it to me in a PM.

There is a lot of controversy around vaccines.  I'm sure many of you have heard about what happened when someone did bad science and "claimed" off of one study funded BY their interest group that vaccines caused autism in humans.  Suddenly, people stopped vaccinating children.  We had such a huge outbreak of whooping cough in California it killed babies and elderly.  It's mandated by the state now to have that vaccine before you go to school.

I bring up human medicine because it is a more relevant way of looking at it.  What happened with the autism scare was the media got a hold of something and that doctor made a lot of money on his study.  Now, I don't feel this author has any intention of doing anything but presenting an idea but as a scientist I don't like that there was no citations on the studies mentioned.

The second article?  By Catherine O'Driscoll?  I found exactly to be the type of over-hyped sensationalistic writing that doesn't give you the honest truth.  Again, where are the citations?  This is worse than the magazine, because it's just some woman on the internet spouting off answers she doesn't fully understand.

Yes, as in all life, any action will cause a reaction within the body.  You eat a banana, say, and that is broken down into multiple parts, shipped around, causes numerous chemical reactions.  All from a piece of fruit.  It would make sense to say that if you are given a medication, your body is going to have other reactions to it.  You have to weigh the risks (for that is what that list is talking about) versus what the drug/vaccine does for the animal/human.  Often these risks are short term and rare backed by numerous studies.

The FDA does not simply let things ship out when people decide they have a good idea.  There are 10 year long studies done on any drug before it is released to market and then further studied while copyrighted by that company for another length of time.  Then further studied.. people want to keep an eye on these things - improving means more money for them because they can remarket and resell what they created years ago.

Now, in the article, it did say that parvovirus was a human created disease.  The truth is, there was a lot of bad science - and still is bad science in today's world - that caused a lot of things to go wrong.  You look up any old psych studies, medical studies, CEO experiments and the list of unbelievably stupid, bad, bad, BAD studies goes on and on.  It doesn't surprise me that people in a lab wouldn't think about testing the cats they were processing.  But you can sure bet that now there are stricter policies in place.

In terms of continuing your boosters on your dog.  If you are on the fence about vaccinating, I'd say you had best do the puppy series of immunities.  I don't kid about the parvo virus, as I have stated before, it is horrible and horrifying.  Some areas are in an epidemic - the area I work, for example, if a dog were to go on the street unvaccinated?  It will get this disease.  I see cases, or have idiots call in, about it every week.  Had proper protocol been followed, vaccines, these dogs would not have gotten it.

If you are in an area that has low to moderate risk of parvo, I'd still vaccinate and quarantine.  As the dog ages, if you'd rather to opt out of the simple booster (it's the cheaper option) you may easily test the dog or cat's titer levels with a simple lab test.  There are certain values that fall in range of having immunity.  I have known dogs that would come in for yearly exams and titers and so long as values fell where they should, they didn't vaccinate.

I think that's the educated option.  Do it as puppies because it's the very young animals that can't handle parvo at all.  You could in theory test their titers as you would an adult dog to see if they still have their mother's immunities but what the article in the magazine didn't go over was that antigens aren't always shed - or recognized - and as pups grow and develop some immunities don't last.  The strongest and best immunity is when your own body has conquered a vaccine and has the memory cells in them.  I could bore you further with the biochemical aspect of this, and can if you are interested.  But that's why many vaccines are "killed-virus" vaccines as they are gathered from a person or dog that has overcome the disease and has the recognition cells in them.  That's how they should've first created the parvovirus vaccine but they didn't.

Viruses are ever changing and mutating.  Whether we vaccinate the world or don't, these changes will keep happening.  Evolution is part of life.

I didn't really touch on that last article Gunny because to me, it's no good all around.  Aggression?  Please...

Sorry for long-winded reply but I could've really amped up the science on this one.  :)

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I have read all the same, my issue what to do when your puppy is having reaction to the parvo booster.  My vet is telling me that since, Tango, reacted at 9 weeks we will have to have a steroid shot before all parvo booster for the rest of his life.  This is not acceptable.  First, the steroid shot is crashing his bladder control.  COMPLETELY for around 6 hours.  He is a very sweet dobe and becomes this little monster.  This happened after his first reaction at 9 weeks.  Took him back and they gave him a steroid shot.  Told them what affect it had on him.  Then for his 12 weeks booster they gave him the steroid injection before the booster.  Second HUGE issue.  Our son is a immunlogist, he says the steroid injection is rendering the booster almost worthless.  The steroids do not allow the booster to cause the right reaction in the dogs immune system.  Son says we are throwing our money out the window and leaving Tango very vunerable to many illnesses.  Steroids in a puppy or baby, who already have a very weak immune system, leaves them unprotected from just about everything.  Not to mention the puppy is going to the vets, where sick animals go.  I have called several vets, in my area, none seem to have a solution.  They all must of learned from the same book.  Our son is also telling us it is very troublesome that the steroid shot is compromising his bladder so much.  Again being he is so young it could be causing major damage.  We want to have him protected against parvo, just feel we are killing him in the process with steroids.  Not to mention that the booster is not nearly as effective with steroids in him, to stop the reaction which what has to happen to make the booster work.  Oh and one other thing, vet wants him to have at least 5 parvo boosters.  Claim the"books" now say all dobes need at least one extra booster because they get the disease more often.  I have been a dobe or dobe mix owner for almost my entire life and have never had more than the four doses of parvo.  Has anyone had a dog react to the booster.  I really trust my son the most.  Granted he practices immunlogy on people, but he gets how the immune system works and he is very concerned that Tango is still being left wide open to parvo.  He claims there is research out there to back it up.  Just that not much research is done for animals.  Not many companies willing to spend the money on the research.  Sorry so long, we have two more weeks before we need to get another.  I will NOT let him have a steroid shot and the vet said he may die from the reaction.  How do they know he will react at all??  There has to be some reaction, in his body, for the booster to work.  My son thinks it is the compound used in the vaccine causing the trouble rather than the parvo cells in the vaccine.  What would you guys do in our case??

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All my pups get their initial puppy shots but I do space them out alot more than vets do. The rabbies is at 9 months and I repeat the commonly yearly shots at 3.5 to 4 years old. I do not use heart worm meds. or any chemicals for bugs on any of my dogs. This has been my practice since 1965 and I've had no problems at all. I do keep my dogs groomed and use a herbal spray at times if we go into a heavily wooded area. I also inspect the dogs nightly from mouth to paws to insure they have no onboard passangers and that theres no bumps or scrapes or wounds of any kind.

I think the possibilty of over vaccinating is very real and the vets today have a pill offering for everything it seems, much like their human counterparts. I think that this pill practice especially antibiotics hampers the immune system long before a pup is birthed. The Sire & Dam are often times compromized by these practices too. The amount of suppliments given to puppies who are on a balanced diet offered by dog food companies that spend tons of money on researching isn't even considered when these suppliments are given. I've spent my life since 10 years old with Dobermanns and the vet I started out with in Conn. still advises me when I'm caught between my currents vets pill offering and my way of herbal or wait and see options. My current vet is a young man who does a wonderfull job in the operating room but lacks the experience that a vet with 55 years has. I guess I have the best options for my animals.

Do most people & vets. over dose their pets yearly??? I belive they do, and I've never talked to a vet off the cuff that didn't agree. You won't see it in writting its a "packed" thing of some kind hahaha! Von

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My dogs get a puppy series of three vaccines at 8,12 and 16 weeks, these are the core vaccines of parvo, distemper, etc..  They're boostered again twelve months after the last shot in the puppy series.  After that I do titer testing annually for parvo and distemper-I've never yet had a situation where that titer testing showed a lack of adequate antibodies for these diseases.

They get rabies vax at about 5 months of age, and I follow state law.  In my state, the first rabies shot is good for one year, after that it goes to a 3 year schedule.

The only other vaccine they're given is bordetella once a year, and I only do that because my dogs spend about 3 weeks in a boarding kennel every year while we go on vacation, and being current on bordetalla is a requirement to board them.  If I didn't board them, I wouldn't ever do bordetella.

I do think the trend has been to overvaccinate dogs, and the dogs frequently have paid a price for that.   It's important for puppies to receive adequate coverage through vaccinations, but there's really no need to keep slamming dogs with vaccines they don't need every year for the rest of their life.

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Hi argo and tango, I think I had touched on this subject with you in another thread.

I think your son is a very smart individual and if I were in your shoes, I'd switch vets to be honest.  I don't know how severe your puppy's reaction was, but you had said it was so bad I think that he almost died?  Did the vet say almost die or when you brought him back did you think he was that close?

There are actually different types of vaccines on the market - something I bet your vet didn't tell you.  You should ask what type of vaccine they use.  There is Distemper & parvo, Distemper, parvo & lepto... and just distemper.  I personally feel that parvo is the most important.  I don't have to repeat why again.  It could be the compounding agents or the other factors if it is too strong of a vaccine.

I have never personally experienced the need for steriods for every vaccine, benadryl and hyper-monitoring by the vet, yes.  But as I asked the questions above, I don't know how bad the reaction was.  Next time at work I will log on to our VIN (veterinary information network) and browse around and see what's on the vet boards about bad reactions and what they do with them.

Continued steriod use is a problem in long doses over time as it can cause diabeties.  I don't think a monthly shot would do that, but at the same time it does seem excessive.  The loss of bladder control is probably becuase the steriod does cause increased need to urinate and thirst and puppy couldn't get to the door fast enough.

I don't think that you are killing him, with the steriods.  I think he is having bad reactions to them.  He may have a body system that is very reactive to all medications, so be prepared for that as he grows.  I encourage you to seek another opinion on him but don't lean towards not vaccinating if you can help it.  I should take pictures of the parvo cases.  Like I had said in my first post, you have to weigh the risks and effects vs the treatment and what it does.

----

People may choose to go against modern medicine as much as they want.  I don't trust every vet and every vet diagnosis because I have worked with some that are pushers of medications, treatment, etc and I, as a staff member, knew it was money seeking behavior.

But the herbs and natural supplements out on the market are something I would be leary of, not because they are options - and I think options in the right direction sometimes - but because there is no legal monitoring of their creation.  Part of my research on campus was about fake drugs sent to market.  We took numerous supplements out on the market, chinese herbal, India herbal, American herbals and tested them with our XRF machine.  Each and everyone had chemicals in it that are EXTREMELY harmful.  Arsenic, most would think of.  But also lead... and compounds that matched what is in drywall.  These companies just mix things together and sell them with a label that says "WILL WORK".  It's not good practice and until the government mandates control on them just like the prescription market I'd be very very worried about trusting something you buy off a counter in a store or online.

As far as heartworm medicine, if you live in a low risk area you probably are fine.  I live in California, it is a low risk area.  I only started treating my dogs for heartworm since we moved behind a creek and have a mosquito problem as a precaution.  Southern states are more high risk.  Look at Ben's story, the rottie, he has heartworms.  Many, many southern dogs end up with the same issues because their areas are high risk.

Just be informed when you make your decisions, for your benefit.  It ultimately is up to you, but best be an educated and not a gut choice.

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Von, I have to agree with you on the antibiotics. I was told a while back by my vet (then) that if you overuse antibiotics that it will surppress their natural imune system. So I only use antibiotics very limitedly. Case in point, Jewel had a skin thing going on, the vet scraped and found nothing but persribed antibiotics. It never would clear up. Long story short, I started feeding "raw" and the problem disappeared (not advocating raw diet [this time]). The vets also like to give pain meds. The same older vet told me that if your dog has problem that needed pain meds to go home with, lets say after spaying or a broken limb, something like that, to let them hurt, it keeps them still and will let the malady heal. With pain meds the dog feels better, not hurting, and will want to run play and be a dog, possibly causing more harm. He has no idea he/she just had surgery or a leg set. Now if it's severe pain, the dog should probably at the vet hospital/clinic anyway.

As for vaccinations, around here the LAW says you must vaccinate for rabies and all of the dog clubs that I have experience with, want that proof of vaccination. Now Jess brought up a good point, titer levels, I think I will talk to my vet about that. If I don't have to pump extra chemicals in them, I would rather not. 

Around here mosquitoes are a way of life not a sesonal occurrence. Heart worm is big time here. Would like to ask, what do you (Von) use?

I'm not in any way suggesting that anyone NOT vaccinate or not do what they think is best for your dog, I though the subject was good food for thought and I might learn something (Thanks Jess).

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<< My son thinks it is the compound used in the vaccine causing the trouble rather than the parvo cells in the vaccine.  What would you guys do in our case??>>

Your son may have a good point here.  I'd ask the vet what brand vaccine they've been using, and try to find another vet who uses something different. 

Someone else brought up the subject of combination vaccines.  If that's what your puppy is getting, then the combination of too many vaccines at one time may be the issue-it may work out better to vaccinate him individually for each disease, i.e., just a parvo vaccine, etc.

I'd also find out if leptospirosis is one of the ingredients if your pup has been given combination vaccines.  Lepto is known to cause a lot of side effects, so if this disease isn't common in your area, then many vets will advise against vaccinating for it.

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Murrydobe, that's exactly the schedule that puppies should be on.  It correlates to when the immunities drop.  The reason they get off schedule and need a fourth generally is because the breeder starts them too early at 6 weeks, thus throwing everything off. Thus, Fancy had a 4th vaccine.  I do have to say that I gave my minpin an extra vaccine because there was active parvo in the neighborhood.  In my career I have seen a few active cases of distemper and one of lepto.  And many many of heartworms.  My vet told me that the area I'm in now is low risk, but you never know when you may travel to an area that is high risk.  I keep mine on heartworm preventative.

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Thanks for all the info.  Tango reaction at 9 weeks was life threatening.  His mouth was so swollen, his little tong was stuck out and he was having trouble breathing.  I do need to find out what type of booster he is gettting.  I am 95% sure he is getting the parvo/distemper.  I am not familiar with lepto.  He had a booster at 6, 9 and 12 weeks.  They want to do 2 more.  He is a awesome dog(so far).  He is housebroken, sits, down, come and stay are just super.  He really wants to please, which is great.  I am a petsitter, have taken many classes, but nothing too heavy into vaccines.  I live in Alabama, and here locally four boosters is the norm.  I have called four other vets, locally, and they give me the same story.  He needs at least 5 boosters of parvo/distemper and he must have a steroid shot.  I think I am going to dig my heels in and refuse the steroid shot and just see how he does with benadryl.  I am not going to have him get 5 boosters of it either.  They already gave him the rabies vaccine.  I made them do it on a separate day to see how he did.  No issue.  My two "kids" are not on any flea meds either, I believe less is more.  I wash there beds weekly, they get nails clipped, ears cleaned weekly, and teeth cleaned.  Baths are every two weeks.  We do not have flea issues.  I do have them on heartworm preventative.  It is a big issue here.  I am going to definitely as about titer levels.  I think I am going to have them check before we go any further.  

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I don't know why they'd push you to 5 unless he started young and his "fourth" wasn't at the right time.. but at the same time, they should've been the ones telling you to seperate rabies and distemper shots as a vaccine reactor.

Sounds like you made it through the series (almost) and now you can check titers next year rather than going this route again.

Just because I work at a vet, love medicine, doesn't mean I use everything either so don't get me wrong.  Educated choices!  I have Advantage on hand for when its flea season and use it if needed.. I rarely use it.  I bathe regularly, brush, and clean my house.  I only use it when I think they may have them. 

Welcome to the group btw... I think your boy is going to be a wonderful dog for you.  Just make sure whenever he gets a new medication you let the vet - or remind them - he has had bad reactions to steriods and vaccines.

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Thanks so much.  I must of missed your response at the other thread.  So I am assuming you work in a vets office, probably a vet tech?  I wanted to just do the benadryl and my vet said it was not enough.  She claims once a reaction, always a reaction and benadryl alone will not stop it.  I was very surprised by this, because we had one dog years ago react to her parvo and we did benadryl.  She was fine.  I really want him to have his boosters, just very concerned about the approach.  Calling four other vets, I felt like I was listening to a broken record.  They all said the same thing.  I am stunned to hear that rotties and dobes are very prone to parvo.  At least that is what I am being told here.  Heartworm is a MUST here.  My boss(we are professional petsitters) has just taken in a boxer that has heartworm.  It is found even in dogs that take heartworm prevention.  

I am not going to venture into the herbal side of meds.  My son has warned us to stay clear.

I also have a good friend that rescues.  She has lost many puppies and young dogs to parvo.  Did you know tamaflu will save the animal if given soon enough.  She has had great success with tamaflu in parvo cases.   

I have used this vet office for 30 years, but I must say in the past few years I feel it is all about the money.  I hate to leave but I think the time has come.  Tango is too important to us and I have to do what is right for him.  

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I am a vet tech.. have 10 years experience and I also have had training on dog behavior and training dogs.  I'm a biochemistry major for my B.S as well.  Your son is such a great resource for you guys.

I am not a vet, so maybe with the severity of the reaction (so very scary!!) benadryl is not enough.  But at the general practice I worked at years ago, that was the protocol. They'd be dropped off for 4 hours of monitoring, given a benadryl injection and then the vaccine and monitored like a hawk.  It's a precautionary statement to say once a reaction always a reaction and may or may not end up being the case. 

Either way, I think once puppy series is done its best to check your titers instead.  You may live in a very high risk area of parvo and thats why they push the 5th.  I'd go ahead and get the 5th if that is the case.  To hospitalize a patient for parvo here at my Emergency clinic is 1000$+ and outpatient treatment, though cheaper, doesn't have the best success.

You may ask if they can order you just a parvo vaccine but I'm not entirely sure they make just parvo.

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So I just looked it up.  Tango is getting a distemper/parvo/hepatitis T2 booster.  I did ask about breaking it up into smaller doses, last week, and they told me the booster would be ineffective.  I now need to see why they cannot just give him a parvo booster and then go back for a distemper booster.  Shame on me for not knowing what they were giving my dog.  How many distemper booster are needed?  He has had three of this booster complex.  It may be that the booster is too much for him.  He may just have a super sensitive immune system.  

Yes having a immunologist in the family is great.  He saved my dads life twice from infection the hospital could not figure out.  Son says hospitals are employing more techs to do the jobs of M.D. or PH. D. immunologist and they just don't know what they are looking at.  Sad for all of us.  Like I said, our son, was very alarmed at the steroid to prevent the reaction.  He said he hopes people doctors aren't doing this.  I wonder why vets around here say dobes and rotties need at least five booster of parvo.  Probably the same ones who say dobes are vicious and dangerous.  Protective yes, not vicious.  Once I tell mine it is ok, they go lay down or greet however is here.  Just be careful I tell people, Argo is not allowed on furniture, but she loves to sit in your lap.  Her brother(our son has him) does the same thing.  Just too funny.  Tango is still learning, and will be learning for a long time.  I really want to do therapy work with him.  So far he seems like a great candidate.  I too do dog training.  I get them after their"parents" have let them have their way and rule the house.  Very hard to go backwards.  I tell all my clients start right out of the gate with good behavior.  They will get it, have patience.  Ahh so easy to say.  Tango got up at 3 this morning to play.  His crate is in our room, that may change.  He loves everyone and all animals.  We are in a very dog friendly area, with preserve land at our doorstep and greenway.  A great place to live and have animals.  I do miss my 14 year old that we lost in March.  I would do anything to have her back.  

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<<You may ask if they can order you just a parvo vaccine but I'm not entirely sure they make just parvo.>>

Yeah, they do.  Two or three companies make vaccine that's just parvo.

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I'm not familiar with that booster you listed, it could be because we're in different states.  I'd ask them to get you a distemper & parvo.  Here in CA.. I could go to the local feed store and buy them.. so it shouldn't be an issue for your vet to get them in.  I'd still have vet monitor him and administer the vaccine, even though you can purchase over the counter.

Its not necessarily the number of boosters, its the age of the dog.  I think Murray went over the usual schedule.  Puppies need distemper/parvo/combo shot up to 16 weeks and then the immunities should be set in.  Rabies is typically at 16 weeks as well.

Its not your fault you didn't research.. had he not had a reaction.. you wouldn't even have to think about vaccines to this level.

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Thanks Murrey.  I don't do the vaccine ordering at my clinics so couldn't tell you what the options are.  I just know there are options.

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<< Rabies is typically at 16 weeks as well>>

Yeah, I'm in CA too, and our state law says rabies is supposed to be given at 16 weeks.  But I try to wait 3-4 weeks, because I don't like to give them rabies right on top of the last booster in the puppy series.

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In AL they say the sooner the better.  Tango had his at 9 weeks.  Maybe the Rabies was too soon.  

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<<In AL they say the sooner the better.  Tango had his at 9 weeks.  Maybe the Rabies was too soon. >>

Rabies laws do vary by state.  I just looked up Alabama's (as of 2010, I assume it hasn't changed).  They say the first rabies shot needs to be done at 3 months of age, which would be 12 weeks.  So your pup definitely got his earlier than he needed to be in compliance with state law.  Whether this caused any problems for him, I couldn't say.

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He was fine with it.  No issues.  Waiting on the vet to call to discuss the options with the parvo/distemper booster issue.

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Vet called, we talked in length.  No steroids for Tango.  Mild allergy meds one day before booster and continuing for 3 days afterwards.  She talked to the other 4 vets in this office, they all did research and came up with this solution.  They feel very strongly in the need for the booster.  Here locally parvo has been especially bad this year.  Will keep everyone posted, let you know if this works.

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Look at how persistence paid off for you though... you got yourself educated, went out and researched, asked questions, QUESTIONED the vets protocol...

I agree, that last booster is in Tango's best interest.. but at least now he may not even have a reaction if it is JUST the parvo vaccine.

Let us know how it goes for sure!