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Joined: 2013-01-08

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We are wanting to neuter our baby boy Mosin. What is a good age? he is 4 months right now. And how do you think it will affect his disposition?

Echo's Dad's picture
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It's probably best to do some research on that for yourself, as there are significantly different sides to this topic.  Me personnaly, I am not convinced there is any REAL medical benefit to neutering a male.  Sure it may reduce the dogs wanderlust and keep him closer to home, but this is not always the case as I have seen locally that version and the opposite of it.  It will reduce the chances of testicular cancer, however, that particular cancer in most breeds is not a very high risk factor.

Other considerations - neutering can cause a hormone imbalance where the dog will gain weight even when fed a normal healthy diet.  It can resolve leg humping issues (hit or miss on that); it can mellow the dog and resolve aggression issues (again, hit or miss).

Basically, gather all the good solid information you can to make the call yourself.  Many people's biggest hang up is that it will stop unwanted breeding - which is true, it will.  However, if it is unlikely your dog will ever cross that bridge, then why do it?

Changing the disposition - not normally, your dog should be the same either way, but remember, nothing is a given.

Most vets concur it is okay to neuter starting at 4.5 months.

Kar-jinx's picture
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I can't tell you when the best age is as there seems to be at least 2 schools of thought. But you are making a good choice.  Thank you for considering neutering!  

I don't believe in the weight gain thought against neutering, because you the owner control the food. Unless your family or neighbor are sneaking the dog extras.

Change in disposition is up to the owner too. Yes, the dog needs rest and care post surgical, but my mom doesn't still coddle me into adulthood because she made a choice to have my tonsils removed at age 4.

An intact male is an unfulfilled male. He craves to mate. I think that is inheirant in every male of every species. My friend's GSD is intact and tries to mate adults, children, and any dog male or female. Every time he sees Daymian, he tries to mount my dog.  The owner is too focused on a few days of post surgical pain to do the most humane act and neuter his male.  He admitted he'd react different if he owned a female and she brought him a litter of puppies twice a year, but I still can't convince him. True enough, some dogs are just born wanderers.  They can smell a female in heat for miles.  This is what stirs the hormone pot. Then the male slips out of the house from a carelessly unsecured door, jumps a fence, digs his way out or whatever way he can get there. Just knowing my dog no longer desires to mate, and is no longer tempted is a bit of insurance for me.  My dog doesn't know how to cross a busy highway, or use a crosswalk, or that every car driver is not paying attention to him and his impulse to mate. An intact male is in a hurry to get to his prize and nothing can stop him.

However, if it is unlikely your dog will ever cross that bridge, then why do it?  

My answer to this is, the dog will not be happy.  He will still smell females in heat and since he can't mate will become frustrated and not be living a desirable life.  Put yourself in his paws.  Not many of any species ever goes through life sexually unfulfilled.  You'll also not be tempted by friends and aquaintances to breed your dog, ever. Just bringing Daymain into our lives last May, I can't begin to count the people who've asked if I would consider breeding him. Seems a lot of people know an unaltered female somewhere that combined with Daymian would bring a lovely batch of puppies.....until I point out, he's neutered.  I was tempted once by my own family and friends to breed my female, I caved in, and the whole thing was a lesson at the school of hard knocks for me and unfortunately for my female as well. 

Please leave the breeding to the pros.  Spay or neuter.

glengate's picture
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A lot of adult male Dobermans have prostate problems/infections.  Once they start, they are hard to treat and then neutering becomes necessary anyway.  IMO, it's a major reason to neuter a male Doberman. 

Echo's Dad's picture
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Some great additions to the never ending debate, hence the request for self research, including this forum, as everyone can contribute lessons learned.  Still the best option is to be informed and not everyone's situation will be identical. 

The weight gain due to neutering is a fact in SOME dogs, not all, but some, and it is directly tied to having them neutered.  My experience - I neutered a 4 year old beagle, no change in feeding times or amounts and he ballooned like the goodyear blimb.  All tests returned with the problem being related to hormones following the surgery.  I have 3 neighbors with neutered males, two of the 3 have weight problems following being neutered.

My last doberman, I never had him neutered and he never had any prostate problems or infections.  He lived to 14 years of age before I had to put him down due to inoperable cancer.  He was a very spoiled and happy dog and was never sad because he couldn't mate.  Fact - not all male dogs go nuts over a female in season and some don't even know what being intact means.  If there is an indication of a problem, by all means neuter or even neuter to be on the safe side, however, just realize that your dog is not likely to die from some infection or disease if you decide not to neuter.  Nor does it mean that he is going to father hundreds of litters of puppies.

If neutering is a given, and I do not have a problem with neutering, I am of the school to let them grow and develop some before neutering.  I have never been a fan of neutering early, though I am not aware of any physical or neurological problems from neutering as early as 4.5 months.

Lastly, if you ever plan on showing him in any conformation, then you do not want to desex him.

Joined: 2013-01-08

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Thanks for all the advice, i really do appreciate it. I am just so thrilled I found this website!  

 I am in agreement with you Echos Dad, I took the veternarians advice and  we neutered our Boxer at 5 months, and he never learned to lift his leg, therefore he forever pees like a girl. And I don't think we want to hang that problem on Mosin..  : (  

 also since our Boxers neuter I have noticed he is bigger in stature, not in weight. I think because he is always playing with the kids in the back yard. And now with the addition of Mosin, they both are getting play time and really wearing them selves out. 

 Kar-Jinx I can relate to what you said about the male wondering around...think of all the un-neutered male cats in the world. So there ya go! I use to have two female cats, they were spayed..but I could still tell when there was a male lurking around outside...they would go nuts. The equipment may have been gone, but that urge was still there.. 

 

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Not getting your dog neutered because you don't want him to squat to pee is not a reasonable reason for not neutering. My chihuahua who has been neutered since 4 years old or younger lifts his leg higher than he is tall whereas the rottie who was intact until he was 7 and the rescue neutered him, sometimes lifts his leg, sometimes doesn't, but does it matter????? what is the issue with squat or leg lift some males don't lift their leg cause they are just lazy, some because they have leg or spinal issues but not wanting to neuter cause you don't want your male squatting???? It is amazing how it always seems to fall on the female of the species to get "fixed" both dog (male/female) owners have a responsibility to prevent litters of puppies. Working in rottweiler rescue we are dumbfounded by the amount of male rotties that are unaltered. Unless someone is planning on being a backyard breeder there is no reason not be a part of the over-population solution instead of part of the problem. Something to consider is what we have happen in rescue - someone's beloved rottie gets out the door and races off never to be found again or jumps out of the car while they have stopped for gas etc. - if the dog is unaltered you have just opened up a world of abuse/hurt on your dog - the things that happen to an unaltered male or female in the hands of criminals, animal abusers, and backyard breeders is horrible - but you take that away from these people if your dog is neutered!!!! yes your dog could still be sold to a lab for experiments, used as a bait dog and just injured and viciously hurt by others but the lifelong breeding prospects are not there, meaning someone wanting your dog for those purposes will keep on going and you stand a chance getting your dog back or it making it into rescue where a good home can be located. Do you and your dog a favor and get it neutered.

and weight gain comes with age not neutering....hormones drop as dogs get older same as in humans so yes you will most likely some weight issues as the dog gets older but you can control the weight with diet changes and exercise - not a reason to forego neutering......

Joined: 2013-01-08

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Talisman- I clearly stated in my Initial question That I WAS WANTING TO NEUTER my dog.Not only have I worked for many years in the veterinary field, but I was the Liason between Base Housing and the Army Veterinary clinic onboard Naval Station Mayport. I know first hand what problems not getting an animal spayed or neutered can create. Do you know what its like to see abandoned animals left helpless sitting in the garage or on the base veterinary clinics doorstep because the irresponsible owner got orders to transfer, and then realized the processing red tape that is involved by transporting a animal over seas? So, what was the easiest thing to do? leave your pet of course!. The majority would be cats left behind, therefore a enourmous ferral population emerged.  Which is why the Army and Navy Housing created a Catch and Spay/neuter program along with  micro chipping of any pets of owners living in base housing. 

 I was asking about a good age to do so, because When we did our Boxer, (on the advice of our vet).  he was very young, had not learned to hike his leg and when he squats to pee, he pees all over the back of his front legs. THEREFORE--- I am hoping to wait a bit before having our Dobe neutered to see if he will learn to do so in order to not pee on himself.  My comment " pees like a girl" was clearly a bit of joking around...sorry that you did not pick on that. 

talisin's picture
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Hi, yes I knew you had said you wanted to neuter but as your posts continued it did sound like you were changing your mind. And yes I do know what it's like to see animals left behind I have 8 cats 4 of which came into the household because people moved and left them and they would sit on the porch and wait for an owner who never came back......it is very heartbreaking to see the trust animals put into their humans and then see that trust broken......and having worked at an animal hospital it never ceased to amaze me at the pets that would come in and be abandoned while AT the hospital and we would have to find a home or a rescue to take them, some never stopped looking at that next person through the door hoping for their owner........and as always typing doesn't have the tone of voice or laughter that verbal conversation does, I was hoping you were joking but you would be surprised at how many people new to the forum will actually respond that way and mean it.....I hope you are able to figure out when you think it is best to neuter I know there are alot of views about whether to do it young or as late as 18 months......only you will be able to decide, but I would do it earlier just in case there was one of those slips and your dog got out and took off.....

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I spay or neuter, vaccinate, buy healthy food, purchase my town's dog tags and ID tags, microchip, fence the yard and monitor it regularly for safety, I clean the yard daily,  I do not allow my dogs interaction with dogs not up on their shots, I supervise, I research.....all to give my pets the best and healthiest life I possibly can.  If these and other things only help 1% to increase a healthier pet, then I feel justified in doing it.  If my dogs don't end up a statistic on over population of purebred or crossbred puppies, or road kill for wandering, or preventing disease, then I am happy with my choice.  

My neighbour's chubby unaltered male black lab manages to escape his chain and 6 foot fence on a regular basis.  How?  I'll be darned if I know, but he's been caught in the act a few times and still the owner won't neuter.  I sometimes wish he'd escape to a family that cared more about him.  It's not a monetary reason either as both adults make great money.  Together they have about 5-6 X the income I do.

I am happy that you are asking, and you are making the right choice.  I too have heard different ages from 4 and a half months to 18 months.  Your best bet is to ask your vet and make your choice on the information they provide. 

glengate's picture
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Does anyone else find it strange that someone with "many years of experience in the veterinary field" is asking a bunch of strangers on the internet when to neuter their dog? 

DJ's Dad's picture
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*raises hand

Joined: 2013-01-08

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GlenGate: Yes I have worked for years in the veterinary clinic enviroment. Mostly on military bases with the Army. What one incoming army vet. would say in his SOPS ( that would be standard operating procedures for those of you who don't understand the acronym) would not be the same as what we had just had with the outgoing vet. That was true with surgeries, vaccines and heartworm prevention procedures. 

Since this is my first Doberman, I thought I would ask the question in this forum And get the consensus from other more experienced Dobe owners. To read their thoughts and listen to their advice when it comes to neutering the breed. Again since he is our first Dobe, I was also curious as to how his dipostion might change once neutered. Just like people, not all dogs are the same. I assumed when I joined that this is what the website and forum were for. Please correct me if I am mistaken. 

Sorry, you found it necessary to comment in such a snide and snotty way. Thus, now making me re-think my decision to be on this forum. If this is how members get treated, then I don't want to be apart of it. 

glengate's picture
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With no consensus between vets, why did you think it would be any different amongst owners? 

Joined: 2013-01-08

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I didn't think it would be different amongst owners, I merely asked for opinions. Why have you found it neccessary to attack me about a simple question? Do you do that to every one else on here? 

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i'm sorry that you're feeling attacked. I don't think anyone is trying to attack you, we're all very passionate about the breed and most of us are involved in or interested in rescue. Sometimes when that passion is expressed in writing it can sound like an attack. 

Because of my work in rescue, I believe in juvenile s/n. Once the cats hit 2 pounds, they're in for their s/n. (I have never ever had an issue and I've had literally hundreds of cats done, working with our feral cat program.) My dogs are the same - as soon as they are big enough to handle anesthesia, the gonads are gone.

It's a little different with Buggles though. She's 6 months old and my vet wants to wait until her body is more mature before spaying. I don't know how I feel about that because I do not want her to be at risk for cancer and pyometra, so I will be seeking the advice of a few more vets, just in case. I do trust my vet and she is an experienced doberman handler, having been owned by them for the past thirty years. But I just want to be sure.

I think that's what I would do if I was you - call a few other vets in the area and get their opinions. Then follow your heart and do what you feel is right as far as how old he is when you get it done. I understand that you were joking about peeing like a girl but I can also see where it could be taken out of context, so please don't think we're a bunch of jerks. 

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@Brunosmom, listen to your vet, he knows your puppy best.  Other vets don't know your baby on a single visit.  The increased risk for cancer and pyometra after the first heat is only 0.04 or 0.4 percent (forget which), but it increases significantly with each successive heat.

@boxer-dobies kids, as in life, you must take everything here with a grain of salt.  There are some very passionate Dobie lovers, such as myself, commenting in these forums.  Some may just not express themselves in writing as well as they might in actual conversation and some just skim articles for highlights and believe they understand the gist of the post perfectly (that happens way too often) and comment inappropriately.  Don't feel you have to leave, there is a wealth of experience here and good advice too!  Besides, it wouldn't be much of a forum if someone didn't play the devils-advocate.

As always this is just IMHO.

Celly Swehykol's picture
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Dog sterilization operations are performed under anesthesia and are painless. After neutering for dogs , you will be able to see a decrease in aggressive manifestations. Neutered dogs are kinder, they make fewer mistakes than other dogs, and rarely mark their territories. Sterilization helps prevent various health problems. Sterilization helps prevent diseases such as testicular cancer, cysts, an enlarged prostate, and other infections. So don't worry, your dog will be fine.
 

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It's a little different with Buggles though. She's 6 months old and my vet wants to wait until her body is more mature before spaying. I don't know how I feel about that because I do not want her to be at risk for cancer and pyometra, so I will be seeking the advice of a few more vets, just in case. I do trust my vet and she is an experienced doberman handler, having been owned by them for the past thirty years. But I just want to be sure.

I think I have 4 previous females that all lived their entire lives intact buried in the back yard here. Another buried in a different back yard that lived her entire life intact.

NONE ever died of or suffered from pyo or cancer or any other ailment that had to do with their girly bits...

My current Vet is also the breeder for my current pair and she has never once suggested having them altered. Wonder why that is? I also wonder why she never suggested having either one from my last pair (different breeder) fixed any of the times she saw those girls for whatever reason?

Will have to make a note to myself to ask her if she ever fixed the mom for my current girls next time I see her. Would be willing to bet she has not and has no plans to do so. Won't know for sure till I ask but...

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Dog sterilization operations are performed under anesthesia and are painless. After neutering for dogs , you will be able to see a decrease in aggressive manifestations. Neutered dogs are kinder, they make fewer mistakes than other dogs, and rarely mark their territories. Sterilization helps prevent various health problems. Sterilization helps prevent diseases such as testicular cancer, cysts, an enlarged prostate, and other infections. So don't worry, your dog will be fine.

Really?

 

The truth is, there is very little evidence to support the idea that spaying or neutering is an effective strategy for reducing aggression in dogs.   Most controlled scientific studies on this question (and there have been many!) show that whether a dog is spayed or neutered has no impact at all on the likelihood that they will be aggressive in any given circumstance.

As an example:

Earlier this year, a major study of more than 13,000 dogs ¹analyzed the effect of spay/neuter status and age that the procedure was performed on three different types of aggression – towards familiar people, strangers, and other dogs.  (This is a huge sample size, and the study was very detailed – I highly recommend reading the paper for yourself if this is something that interests you!)

By and large, no significant effects were found.

Interestingly, under one type of statistical analysis, the researchers actually found a modest increase in the risk of aggression (towards strangers, specifically – no change in the other categories) in male dogs neutered between the ages of 7-12 months.  The authors discuss some possible reasons for this finding and acknowledge that we don’t have enough information yet to know if this is a real effect vs. a statistical fluke of some kind, but it’s not the first study to show similar results.

Bit of a shocker, right?

http://www.drjensdogblog.com/the-quick-fix-neutering-as-a-treatment-for-...