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I have been speaking with this breeder and I have been studying this picture of one of the pups. Does anyone see anything wrong with this pup?
Hint: look at his right eye
NO! He's blind. patients hun, the right one will come along.
I am going by the photo, I am/was about to make plans to visit the parents. But debating about it considering the distance which is about 600 miles away. I thought he wa blind or a muscle/tissue isuue with his eye. Looking at him makes me feel that I want to do something to help him. Like he needs a special home or something. It's been about 3-1/2 months since I lost Caine, and instead of getting better. Missing him is just getting worse.
Poor little guy. What is wrong with the eye? What does the breeder say?
I haven't asked the breeder yet, I wanted some input from others.
I think it's just the flash and the fact that the puppy is still so young. Maybe you can ask the breeder to take another picture of the little thing to deny your suspicions? I don't want to self-diagnose, it just makes things seem worse D:
Besides the obvious eye question, that puppy's nails are way too long and the breeder is obviously not taking care of that as they should be. Things like that shouldn't be overlooked either. I personally wouldn't be making a 600 mile drive to see this breeder or their puppies.
Phil, I really think you need to pass this one by. Have you considered maybe talking to some of us and we can share our breeders with you? Or even talk to our breeders on the forum? I know you want another friend and you deserve a good quality dog. I don't know how you are finding the ones you are (craigslist? don't take offense, I just feel like you've been talking to reject greeders!)
The nails I noticed too, I'd have trimmed them before I showed you a picture. Also, the head and face make me wonder - but like LZ said, it could be the photo but it makes you pause. It's the reason why you showed us.
I wish I could give you a "go for it" but I'd hate for you to get a puppy that may have defects.. even if it's blindness.. you would want a friend who could go around town with you, go for walks easily, and be unhindered. If there's blindness, there could be more going on. I'm really sorry. :(
Not sure I'd jump to the conclusion that the pup is blind---flash photos tend to make a dog's eyes appear solid red or somethime green or even glowing like they are electric. And that blobby thing in the inside corner of the eye could just be "morning eye goop", but if I was trying to use a photo to sell a pup to someone, I think I'd clean the eyes out and try to make it look as appealing as possible. Photos rarely ever do justice to the real deal when you're looking at small puppies like this. Agree about the nails, though---they should have already been trimmed before showing to a prospective buyer.
It doesn't quite look like red eye from a flash tho, it looks like the blood vessels from the eye. Like Caine when he stopped moving his eye. I will ask the breeder for a few more photos tho.
It looks like tissue to me. I'm afraid this pup may have a serious eye problem. Maybe it could be improved or corrected with surgery, or maybe not. We all have defects, even though they don't always appear. I understand that you may want to help this pup, regardless and if so that is your call. Everytime I see your name, I remember visiting Caine's Website and what a friend you were to him. How you took such loving care of your buddy until the end.
You may not get any truthful answers from the breeder, but ask anyway. So you might have an idea of what you are up against.
And maybe it is the photo...
Thanks bbroyles, I look out my window and can see Caine do his perimeter run around the yard before relieving himself. That was something he always did. He made sure it was safe before thinking of himself. It has been very difficult and it still is, maybe even worse. I wake up in the middle of the night and find myself calling him to give him a quick pat on the head. Then I realize he isn't here, then I look at his picture on the bookcase tell him I love him and miss him, and try to get back to sleep. It has been hard. It is always very hard when he or she has to go before their time. I have lost dogs to car accidents and old age. But this is the first to a disease, which is one of the reasons it is much harder this time. Relationships can be different too. As with marriages, you can have a great marriage but still not really be connected. Then you can have a good marriage and connect in every single aspect of your life together. The latter is the case with Caine and I. Our relationship / connection was much more stronger and understanable more than any other dog I have had in my 40 years of having dogs. He knew what I wanted from him and vica versa and we move strived to make each other pleased.
I talked to the breeder some more and I am waiting for some more pictures tonight. I took that photo to my vet, and he thinks it might just be the flash. So I took that first picture, and opened it up in my photo editing program and used the red eye filter and it was gone. So I'm thinking if it really was an eye problem the filter would not be able to filter out the red eye. I don't know it that is true or not. I'm not sure of how the filter works. I haven't crossed this breeder out just yet. She has some good answers to my multitude of questions. I have at least half a dozen questions for her everyday, this has been going on for about 6 days now. I'd hate to add up how many questions I have asked her. So tonight we'll see what these new photos show or don't show.
Please keep us updated and share the new photos. I'm feeling so right with your readiness to become a partner again to another Dobe. I had such a closeness to my Sage back in the 70s. She too had her life taken at an early time and I was a mess for a while. We were soul mates, I guess. Together...all the time. I never trained her. She was just with me. All the time. With me. I know your pain. And I know there is one very lucky doberman pup that will soon find the way to you!
Barb
I hate to be a downer but if that is the kind of photo that a breeder would send you in the first place, like I said before, I'd cross them off my list immediately. To me, it just shows a degree of carelessness. That the eye looks questionable and the nails are too long. When someone shows you what they're doing (or not doing), pay attention!
New photos received tonight. I don't know what happened to the tail, looks like it was only docked to half it's length, not at the second or third joint as it should be. The eye issue seemed to be just red eye from the flash.
This last pic looks like flash, that first one really didn't! His tail looks like no hair on the end and up a little too. The end of Leo's tail is like that. It's calloused and without hair. I don't know why. Sure am glad his eye is okay:)
Yeah, I'm happy that his eye is okay also. The tail seems oh so long, and maybe the hair on the end will eventually grow in.
The tail is definitely docked a joint or two too long...might even cause the pup some discomfort as it gets older. I've seen posts where people have had to have their dog's tail re-docked because of improper length. Not short enough to be out of the way when it sits, but not long enough to curl around and be out of the way, like a natural long tail does, either. Scar tissue on the end of the tail sometimes shrinks down a little bit, but hair wont grow on it. It's possible that the hair at the end of the tail will grow enough to almost cover the scar, but not too likely. If it were me, unless I really felt passionate about getting this particular pup, I think I'd keep looking. It is a cute little red dobie, though.
That is what I decided to do is keep looking, I was really disappointed tho. I get like that and feel bad for the dog. When something is done wrong, mis-treated, etc.
Phil, I totally understand what you're saying. Makes you wonder/worry what's gonna happen to a pup that starts out like that.....or it does to me, anyhow. I have a houseful of rescued dogs (little guys) that I felt sorry for because nobody wanted them for one reason or another, so I really do know what you're saying. The thing is, if you are looking for a dog that needs a lot of care and attention and possibly a re-docking surgery, questionable health history, etc etc, I dont think anyone would think ill of you for taking this pup.....BUT, if you are looking for a pup that you can spend some quality time with, without having to wonder what's down the road health-wise, you're probably better off finding a breeder that has quality pups that have a good start already. Does that make sense? (I'm still half asleep, sorry)
Paul, it makes total sense
As much as I sort of bristled at Glengate's post, I have to agree with her to an extent:
I hate to be a downer but if that is the kind of photo that a breeder would send you in the first place, like I said before, I'd cross them off my list immediately. To me, it just shows a degree of carelessness. That the eye looks questionable and the nails are too long. When someone shows you what they're doing (or not doing), pay attention!
There are hundreds of these pups for sale. And I think they all need a good home, just like anyone... but as long as we keep rewarding BYB and greeders, the rate of dilutes, cardio problems, thyroid and other problematic Dobermans will just keep escalating.
Unfortunately it's gotten to epidemic proportions and not everyone can afford or will foot the bill for a high quality, well bred Doberman. Dilemma? you bet, my heart is breaking for this baby.. and his potential owner.
Good luck with your decision.
I kinda agree with Lady Kate.
Lets' ask this question to ourselves.
What will happen to these puppies?
End up with somone who does have a clue about DObe issues, end up in a resuce for a variety of reasons, or worse yet end up in a shelter. And end up never being adopted in a shelter with a limited amount of space being put down. All beacuse we have decided to boycott these breeders. Can we, a small handful of responsible and educated Dobe owners really make a difference? It's like buying a car or really buying anything at all. Like Lady Kate says being able to afford a high quality pup. You have some people that can only afford from a byb or a mill. Then you have the ones that can afford one, but by always looking for a "deal" they will search out the cheapest pup they can find. I can think of a bunch of this reasons. I guess what I'm saying is that can we put them out of buisness this way? And my important question, isn't our responsibility as educated and moral Doberman owners, handlers, and breeders to save these puppies. Isn't our reponsibility to save each and everyone of them? Save them from these mills and byb selling to unmoral people looking for a pup who will eventually mis-treat the dogs and end up being in a shelter nad being put down because no one wants the dog? My issues and questions can go on and on and fill this entire page about the poor dogs being breed from uneducated or ignorant people breeding and selling these dogs to anyone who has the money. Who's responsibility is it to save these innocent animals. Sorry for rambling, it just really gets to me, like a satb in the back. I have a hard time turning my back on a Dobe that needs help in one way or another. I know I can't save all of them but maybe together we can. We wouldn't leave a fellow soldier on the battlefield would we?
Phil, I had forgotten about the tail comfort issue. So glad that Paul, Ziva's Dad mentioned this. There is a thread on this forum with photos of a dog that had the surgery to shorten the tail. The dog couldn't sit! I'm going to look it up and back in a minute if I can locate.
I feel like you are making a good decision. There are people who are caring and don't try to breed for money and are knowledgeable about the health of their dogs and litter outcomes. Then there are many people who breed with nothing but $$$ signs in their heads. They don't worm pups, wean too soon, don't take care of the bitch before, during or after the litter. They couldn't care at all what becomes of the pups or how the bitch recovers from the experience. Just want them standing for the next heat cycle!!
I want you to have a totally healthy pup! If I can help in anyway, I'd be glad to! Do you travel out of state a lot? Same routes? Same states?
Barb
Barb,
I used to I used to travel all over the country except for the west coast. But I quit to be with Caine, and also my Mom 87 years finds it very difficult to be on her own after her surgery. So I have not gone back to working all over again. So now I stay close to home, being home every night and close by if something happens to her. WHich is the reason I came home for Caine, I left him home so he would be totally comfortable and I couldn't accept being thousands of miles away if something happened.
Phil, I understand your wanting to be close. What kind of radius would you look for a puppy?
Hey, check out Jerial3, "Shelbi's" owner. She has photos in her gallery of Shelbi's tail issues and their course of action to correct the problem. Can you imagine how discomforting/tiring it would be for a dog not to be able to sit? Probably put a lot of strain on muscles and joints too. Anyway, she shared some valuable info with us on problems with that kind of wrong crop length. And Kudos to her for fixing Shelbi's sit! Sorry I forgot to get the date of her post, but remember seeing it was about 44-45 weeks ago.
Phil, your questions about BYB'ers have been around for eons and will continue to be unanswered. It's a horribly viscous circle. If we try to 'save' as many pups as we can by buying from "Greeders", they really dont give a rat's patootie what the reasons we buy them are----the point is only that they made another buck and will continue to breed any old female to any old male because they can SELL the puppies. I dont think it's necessarily "our responsibility" (being somewhat educated and caring and responsible dobie owners) to end the cycle by trying to buy up all the surplus dobie pups....to be totally honest, it's those breeders' responsibility--but they dont want it. All they want is to sell that litter of 8 for a few hundred dollars each, and go again when the next litter hits the ground. We can't stop it from happening. I DO agree, however, with your statement that everyone that wants (or feels like they need) a doberman puppy is not financially able to buy one from a 'TOP BREEDER' that has credentials a mile long and shows their dogs, makes sure they are all champions, has every health test known to man done on their dogs (which, by the way, a series of health tests done on any pair of dogs does not guarantee that any of the pups...or the parents, for that matter...wont somehow develop some catastrophic disease or condition that they are trying so hard to avoid) who wants an arm, a leg and your firstborn child as payment for that 8 week old puppy. It's a problem that has no solution. So my advice to a potential dobie owner is simply this: research the breeder, try to find someone that has already purchased a pup from them to see if there were any problems with the pup they got, and go with your heart. You'll know when you find the right breeder and the right dog. I did.
Yes I know that's why I have decided to keep looking, I just find it so hard to turn the other way. Makes me feel I am turning my back on this Dobe. I understand that I didn't breed this dog and it is the breeders responsibility, but if they refuse to take responsibility in doing things right not half way or even the wrong way or not at all. Then someone has to assume the responsibility for these pups. Like when I was in the service, being on a search and rescue team, we all had a job, a responsibility to make sure every mission or patrol went smoothly and no one got hurt. If for some reason, one crew member did not perform his job(responsibility) correctly, someone else had to pick up the slack. Whether it is right or wrong the job has to be done by someone. But I agree with you 100%, I guess I'm just adding another 10% to find an answer to the problem at hand.
Barb, I'll look her up. When I started by search was about 100 miles or so, now it's 1000. Thinking of expanding it to 1500 soon. Being that I am about 100 miles east NYC, that covers about half the country.
Phil, you're a good man.
Thanks LK, but I don't speak spanish...LOL
LOL!
He's a man with humor, too!
(I don't speak Spanish) that's just random funny!
You could try Bell'Lavoro... http://www.belllavorodobes.com/
They were recommended to me on the "other" doberman site. lolz
bbroyles...
Texas...Mexico.
I know everytime I went down to McAllen, Pharr, Laredo, getting produce loads. I always ended up turning off the CB radio, I didn't understand a word. And only ate at places where I could order by number. Yep, I couldn't read the menu.
LOL
@wolfgirl, thanks I'll check them out
Ha! That's some pretty desperado country :)
Speaking of Texas. Here's something I was just looking at online. Looks like they have recent litters and a few red males. They are high dollar! But show test results and plenty of champion working dogs. Worth a look! And they'll ship if you don't want to make the drive down south :) I have a hunch you wouldn't mind!
This is a little different site. Lots of info. Didn't read it all but they have some pups avaiable and expecting litters. Didn't see prices. But handsome dogs :)
Did you happen to see the first photo on Britton Farms site and the caption?
The comment about the snow...ha ha ha
That is hilarious, we get that much snow during the first 10 minutes it starts to snow.
One storm alone we got over 20" of snow!
I decided to look for another breeder but I also sent this breeder an email as not to leave her hanging, with no explanation or anything, common courtsey.
Here is the e-mail with her reply:
I am a little concerned about his tail. It looks like it is docked a bit longer than it should be. I am concerned it may cause him some discomfort in the future.
And her reply:
We was cutting them short and poeple wanted them longer so this is the first
litter we cut longer .It`s not going to be a problem but I understand if you like
the shorter cut as I also like the shorter cut ..I can just keep sending up dated
pictures and as he grows you can see what you think also I have another
litter due in a week that there tails will be docked shorter .
If you have any other questions feel free to ask
Thanks
Seems to me; or at I would have said to a prespective customer that the tails are docked short for a reason, and if docked too long may and will cause issues as they grow. It's like if I wanted to buy a car and wanted the steering wheel on the right instead of the left, it's on the left for a reason. Sorry but I just couldn't think of an example
So, there's another red flag on that breeder - another litter coming when they already have one.
And I'm sorry, but the other 2 breeders mentioned above are not considered to be reputable, responsible breeders either. I'm sure they do have puppies available. They always do.
Glengate, Do you have any sites you'd like to post? I'm just looking on line. What's the problem? I see working dogs, lots of titles, health testing. Where is the problem? I'm an amateur ?
It's predicted to be 101 or 102 for the next few days here in DFW area. I wish I could push an out-of-the-box button and have 20 inches of snow! It's a personal challenge getting from the house to the car! And when you open the car door...steam comes out and curls your face like warped paint! I'd rather be cold, but the grass looks greener (I guess)?
@bbroyles
I'll trade places with you anytime at the drop of a hat.
I'm not really about to pay $4000 for a puppy. I know what it takes financially, but $4000
Yeah, I know! Money better spent!
Here is another. Austin TX http://www.rhapsodydobes.com/
This from north Dallas Home > Contact Us
Contact Us
La Cantera Ranch Resort contact information:
Office: 817-307-7376
Email Kari at kariallen4@gmail.com
New website: www.lacanteraranchresort.com
Doberman Puppies – Please feel free to contact Donna Conrad at (713) 467-7278. Hours of operation are 7 a.m. to 10 p.m.
Here is another question. If a pup or dog for that matter has a small white spot, usually on the chest. Is that a indication of the z factor gene?
Thanks again Barb, I'll take a look
OMG a wedding reception site
A white spot on the chest has nothing to do with Z factor. A small white spot on the chest is even accepted in the standard although it's not desirable.
bbroyles wrote: Glengate, Do you have any sites you'd like to post? I'm just looking on line. What's the problem? I see working dogs, lots of titles, health testing. Where is the problem? I'm an amateur ?
I'm sorry, what sites are you wanting me to post?
I'll tell you what I see when I look at the Britton Farms site.
I see a LOT of text, a lot of talk. Lots of titles? First of all, you have to have an understanding of titles. You need to understand what it takes to accomplish them before you can understand if they are impressive. I see that the dogs that they buy usually come titled in countries like Serbia, where I'm told it is extremely easy to earn the championship title. The only titles that I see Britton Farms earning themselves is the International championship, which again, you have to understand is pretty easy to come by. It's something you can earn in a weekend pretty much by showing up. It is not a respected title in the US.
Yes, I see some health testing going on. A couple of issues I saw were a lack of cardiac ultrasounds, considering that dilated cardiomyopathy is the number one killer of Dobermans. I did see that they are doing the new DNA test for dcm, but we already know it's not definitive. It listed ecg beside some of the cardiac testing. Now, if they are having an ecg at a vet's office, it's for about 20 minutes and can miss a LOT. I saw a lot of references to "Hepatitis free" or "Hepatitis blood test negative". While I appreciate they are doing a liver panel, only a liver biopsy can truly confirm a lack of hepatitis. I do applaud the other health testing.
I see a TON of litters. This year alone - March 7, March 28, another March 28, June 8, June 9, June 10, June 11, June 12. Eight already and it's only half way through the year! Five litters in June - do you really think a breeder can appropriately raise and socialize 5 litters at one time? They must be living in a kennel / facility and not in a home, underfoot.
They are brokers of dogs. They import dogs and sell them to other people. What that tells me about the breeders of those dogs is that they care so little about their dogs that they don't really care where they end up. After all, they've left it to someone else to find their homes. I'm sorry but I find dog brokering to just be repugnant.
I looked at the puppy contract. First, the parvo guarantee - the new owner has to prove the puppy had 4 puppy shots prior to 16 weeks. How can the new owner prove the puppy had the vax it was supposed to have before it left the breeder?
For the guarantee to apply, the dog's ears must be standing and it must be intact (not neutered or spayed). What difference does that make if your dog crippling hip dysplasia? Who cares if its ears are standing?
I didn't see anything in the contract about having to return the puppy/dog at any point in the future if you just find yourself unable to care for it. Every responsible breeder I know has that in their contract, that they MUST be contacted and given the opportunity to take the dog back. It's a safety net for the dogs.
I saw some dogs that were very obese and not in good condition. I saw dogs with kennel sores and calluses.
On top of it all, they are breeding "superior sized" dogs, not to the standard of the breed.
Want a puppy? Just click on Add Item To Cart with PayPal. Not unlike buying a book.
When you consider the number of litters, the brokering, the unreasonable pricing, I don't think there's any question it's a commercial operation with its prime motivation being the almighty dollar. I certainly know breeders doing a lot more with their dogs vis a vis health testing, titling, and breeding way fewer litters, home raising those litters appropriately, offering much better guarantees, and charging considerably less.
Well, share them!
And by the way, since I'm not a breeder, why does a carrier breed to a free?
Again, I have to ask you - share what?
And I'm sorry, I don't understand your question - carrier and free of what?
"I certainly know breeders doing a lot more with their dogs vis a vis health testing, titling, and breeding way fewer litters, home raising those litters appropriately, offering much better guarantees, and charging considerably less."
You could share this if you like.
My question regarding breeding is this.
If you have two dogs being considered for breeding, one is vWD clear and the other vWD carrier, do you breed them?
Would you ever breed a dog that is a carrier?
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Well, it's so hard to tell from a photograph.. Could be the light, could be the angle.. Could be a serious problem..
Have you seen this pup in person, or are you going by the image??