Searchkimbertal kennels???? in Pennsylvania?
ok ,,,, ive heard alot of talk about kimbertal kennells being nothing more than a puppy mill. i bought Dillinger there 2 yrs ago, and thats were im planning to buy my next doberman, to tell u what i thought .those dogs were very well cared for. anybody own a kimbertal doberman.
You really don't want my opinion, but I'm going to give it anyway. They are a commercial kennel and my biggest beef is that they will sell to anyone who can pay .... or hand over a credit card. Way too many of them end up dumped in shelters or with rescue and WAAAAY too many of them end up bred by bybers. Very little health testing on the vast majority of the dogs and it really is a crap shoot as to what you might get. I've seen lots of Kimbertal Dobes - they are not all bad dogs but for the most part they are oversized and often poorly built dogs for BIG prices. I've seen good temperaments and bad temperaments. I've seen Kimbertal dogs that live a long life, and I've seen them that die of cardio too young. The only pedigrees they publish are those of the stud dogs they buy from Europe - dogs that are too oversized for the FCI standard. Dogs that often have youth titles that mean diddly squat IMHO.
To give you a idea - most of the show breeders in this area spend years agonizing over their breeding choices, doing all the health testing, getting the titles, finding the best stud dog.... raising the puppies carefully and just as carefully choosing the homes they go to. Then they keep in touch with the homes and are always available for the life of the puppy. The average price for a pet puppy from a litter like this is about $2000. The difference is that the show breeder isn't in it for the money, and is beyond grateful if they just break even.
The kimbertal puppy is normally whelped by a family that has one of their "breeding bitches" - I would hazard a guess that most of those families are pretty clueless. I've heard stories from someone who has done it. They are then sent to Kimbertal to be sold - the bigger they are, the more expensive. You won't meet the mother, and you won't see where they spent the first several weeks of their life. The people who whelped them won't ever know what happened to them.
This is how some of them can end up: A 7 month old Kimbertal male left for dead....and almost dead. You won't ever convince me that Kimbertal is a good place to buy a dog. It isn't the worst.... but bad enough IMHO.
It is of course your choice on what kind of breeder you choose to support. In my mind, Kimbertal is a blight on the world of Dobermans - and I live only about 1/2 hour from them..... so I see dogs from there all the time.
BTW - that boy in the picture was my foster puppy 7 years ago - he weighed 21 pounds in that picture. He is still around and was adopted by a wonderful home. He is pretty typical for what was coming out of Kimbertal then and his structure is pretty bad. His temperament is wonderful.
Honestly heed the warnings. Of course you love your boy, but you can find such a better breeder to work with.
Why support people that are only in it for the money? The puppy mill debate is HUGE and most of it should make the average person sick to their stomachs.
Go with a new breeder and enjoy an even BETTER experience. I love my breeder, he cared immensely for his dogs who lived at home with him. He took extra time and care with photo updates, I got to visit Steve 3 times before he came home (at a distance of travel for us both!) and he still wants updates and pictures.
Trust that the people who have been in the breeding circles know better. Please.
What health testing was done on the dam? How many byb's have come about because of their practices? Have you read the health reports that get done, have you seen how many times they have gotten in trouble for having sub-par living conditions? Bugs and feces I believe? Read the reports that are public information. It may be pretty eye opening.
I know that Nupe's buddy is from Kimbertal and mine are from a woman who gets her females from Kimbertal. On alot of other forums they call my breeder the Kimbertal of the East. I was clueless I wanted a pet, didn't research her enough and liked the looks of her dogs. Both my dogs have had some health issues, both there mothers are Kimbertal dogs.
My neighbor's first 2 were from Kimbertal and my trainers 3 dobes were from there as well.
When I thought I had done my research and found a good breeder, I was still clueless. I love my dogs wouldn't trade them for the world but I will never buy another dog from where mine came from.
I do agree w/ Jes and I posted a thread a while back for anyone buying a dog in PA- not sure where I will search it out that talks about what Kevin said... there is a link to the kennel inspections for every kennel in Pennsylvania.
It is your choice as always. I won't look down on you for it. My thinking is they are a big place and they are going to continue and I would rather see somebody like you buy a pup from there instead of somebody that would do what fitzmar shows above.
im not sure off hand rite at this moment, i have to dig for his papers from kimbertal. but i do know that they offer a lifetime replacement for any reason at all. any reason, health, temperment, etc. like i said when i was up ther 2 yrs ago to by dillinger, the place was very very clean, all the pups looked very well taken care of . dillinger turned out to be a great dog. i couldnt have asked for a better loving doberman.,and btw he is so gorgoues, u have no idea how many compliments i get on him everytime we go for a walk.
there are also 2 other families in my town that have right now a kimbertal doberman, i have seen and talked to the family. one is a male and 1 is a female. they have no regrets whatso ever. they are also beutiful dobermans
that person should be locked up for a long long time. but is that because the dog came from kimbertal.? that can happen anywere.
Dobermans are great, and you can get a doberman from anywhere, even the worst breeder, and you still may get a great dog. Many times we try to look at the breeding practices as well. How many dogs were on site when you went? Some of the reports show them having 500+ dogs on site. How are they socializing, exercising, and giving the daily attention for that many dogs?
Also, how is your dogs confirmation?
that person should be locked up for a long long time. but is that because the dog came from kimbertal.? that can happen anywere.
But don't you think it's way less apt to happen with a breeder that doesn't have hundreds of puppies to sell and actually has time to properly screen their puppy homes AND keep up with them after the purchase?
there was about 15 pups that were 12 weeks old ready to go. and they were all outside in a fenced in area all playing with eachother. the other ones were alot younger not ready to be sold yet ,probably 5 other litters. kinda like in a barn area. and all the litters were kept all seperate. very clean in their living quaters. i had a very good experience there. beileve me if i saw anysigns of neglect , ditryness, etc, i would have turned rite around and left.
They have been in business for a long time (Kimbertal). That doesn't happen if you sell a bad product. They have to be doing something right. The pic of the puppy posted wasn't because of breeding, that was neglect.
Even the most meticulous breeder can sell a puppy that will have problems.
Just Saying
@ Glengate "But don't you think it's way less apt to happen with a breeder that doesn't have hundreds of puppies to sell and actually has time to properly screen their puppy homes AND keep up with them after the purchase? " This I do agree with.
yes gunslinger that i do agree with u ,that they should screen buyers better. and yes that wasnt the breeders fault. that was neglect. that happends all aound the USA unfortunatly other thann that i think they have some of the most gorgoues dobermans i have ever seen,, mine included
How does your dog, and the other dogs they have fit the standard?
kinda like in a barn area. and all the litters were kept all seperate. very clean in their living quaters. i had a very good experience there. beileve me if i saw anysigns of neglect , ditryness, etc, i would have turned rite around and left.
But then your standard of quality/care seems to indicate that keeping little puppies in a barn is ok? Don't you think that puppies should be IN a home with their breeder and their dam? Don't you think that puppies in a barn are neglected to a certain extent? They certainly aren't underfoot learning about household noises and every day happenings, being doted upon by humans. Personally, I want a puppy that has some idea of family life, not one that's been relegated to the barn.
cmon your making alot more of this than u should...they seem to be all loved and cared for ,not maybe in homes but they are taken care of ... i was holding ,inspecting lots of the pups befor i picked Dillinger out. and they all seemed very happy ,loving . well cared for.all playing outside together befor i even got there. isnt that the MAIN thing? ok maybe they are also in it to make money.,but i really do think they sell quality dobermans.
Any ideas as far as how many of their pups go on to become champions? Again, do these dogs fit the standard?
to tell u the truth. i wanted a superior size doberman. dont really care to much about the standard, im not showing him. Dillinger is 90 lbs. 30 in. i really dont think hes that big at all. but hes very muscular.good genes i guess . i gota look and find his papers ,ill let u know u his mom and dad were. hes probalby a standard size male.
He is actually above the standard. Well bred dogs are within the standard. Good breeders to not breed above standard sized dogs. Many of the over-sized dobermans go on to have joint problems, and weak hearts. Even if you're not showing, the standard is important, and good breeders dogs fit the standard. It is there for a reason, and the oversized dogs often have health problems as a result of it.
In all honesty? The list of people who own these puppies? That's a red flag for me. If everyone owned a dog from my breeder, he clearly would have been breeding too much. Period. On average a female dog should have no more than 4 litters of puppy in her lifetime - it's just good practice (in my opinion). How many litters do you think the females have produced there to have that sure volume of puppies?
Steve is above standard, he is 96 pounds and his brother is almost 100 pounds. I didn't have to go to a mass-producing breeder to get this.
I really don't think you will find any support here to buy another dog from this company. I don't know if you're aware, but in California that kennel would not be likely in operation anymore. In our state, we don't even allow puppies or kittens to be sold out of a store (I went to the mall in Texas and Arizona and was shocked to find puppies in display cases). That is a law for a reason - for the protection of the dog.
You can continue to purchase from the kennel, you're not purchasing isn't going to put them out of business. I think 2,500$ for a dog that is not a show quality dog is outrageous. I paid 1600$ with breeding rights and both of his parents have impresssive bloodlines and other dogs of the line are out competing in show rings, dock jumping, etc.
I understand your position on wanting to defend where you purchased, but before you continue to defend them, why don't you just take the time to read up on the reports that have been filed? And perhaps contact another breeder on the off chance you may find one that you'd rather work with. No one is responding against you, they're trying to share information with you so you can make the best possible choice for yourself.
cmon your making alot more of this than u should...they seem to be all loved and cared for ,not maybe in homes but they are taken care of
Well, let me ask you this -- if, heaven forbid, something terrible happened to you tomorrow, would you want Dillinger to go back to the barn or would you prefer that he returned to a breeder that cares enough about their dogs to at least keep them in the house as pets?
You love your dog and well you should. You see a good breeder, I see a greeder who really does not care where the puppies go. Read that contract carefully - small print too. Are your dogs ears standing? Is he neutered? What kind of home do you think he would go to if you ever had to return him to kimbertal?
Kimbertal is not the worst..... sad to say.
Most Dobermans are beautiful dogs - that does not mean that they come anywhere close to meeting our breed standard. Most people - including vets, don't know what a good Doberman is supposed to look like. I'm sure your boy is beautiful - but if he is 30" he already has a fairly major fault.... neither you or the people who admire him are qualified to judge whether he comes close to our standard. Without our standard, the Doberman would disappear within a few generations - it is our blueprint for breeding.
i prayed thi day wouldnt come- but it has Kimbertal thread is here and no matter how good of a pup Dillenger is and my spawn of K are and Buddy is ~ they are what they are a PUPPY MILL! I dont want one hair on all those hundreds of pups head harmed. but they are breeding too much too many! My breeder after the fact got sloppy in her lies and admitted to me that she had a litter a week for almost 2 months. so letgs say roughly 6-8 pups a litter for 8 weeks.... how do you even care for 48-64 pups plus the other dogs on property. Kimbertal is times 100 of that from what I hear. And like I said I wont judge you and rather you have one then an abusive home. but $$$$ is what they want. My boys bday came and went with nothing to see how he was. i have ssen people here tell how breeder sent message or called... DO better for your next.
OK...So here we go....and all this is my personal experience....My current Doberman..Buddy...is from Kimbertal and I could not be happier!!!....and before BUDDY ..I had 2 rottweilers from Kimbertal (1 male and 1 female)..female is still alive , my brother owns him now and the rotty I had from them lived to 12 years old!!! My interactions with the kennel and the people were outstanding and I have been to the kennel personally 4 times. So with that said....MY Experience has been great with them!!Now are they a puppy mill and just want money and dont care who they sell to...UMMM maybe I am not sure!!.... But I think I alot of folks get caught up with the hype and just are PILING ON""...How many people have actually been to Kimbertal personally?....How man have had any dealings with the kennel personally?...The pic of the dog above is horrible..YES...but is that Kimbertals fault or the owner who had the dog?....and keep in mind yes you SHOULD NOT just sell to anyone, but if you are a business (which they definitely are)...can you just discriminate totally who you wont sell a dog to or do business with?..I mean you can do your best to screen a potential owner but hey people lie believe it or not!!!....and hey here goes a good question...How do they still stay open after all these years???.............I dont know the exact answer to my all questions...but what I do know....MY DEALINGS WITH THEM IN LIKE OVER 12 YEARS ...has beeen very good to great!...Ok I am done!!
...Is the OP asking a question in the opening thread here....or giving a opnion of Kimbertall ? ...seems like he wants someone to talk him out of GOING BACK ...to Kimbertall because it seems he is happy with his male he got from them years ago...am i wrong here??....What exactly is the point of this thread??..someone help me to understand?
the question is i wanted to know what people thought of kimbertal kennells . and i would love to talk to kimbertal doberman owners... i too had a GREAT EXPIRIENCE with them.. and NUPE is 100% correct in what he/she said .... alot of you guys are just {here say}..... meening what u have heard about kiombertal. unless you have been up there and seen those gorgoues pups your self and seen there very clean living conditions and talked with the owners of kimbertal... i also thought they were very nice and caring ... but like Nupe said it is a buissness..and did they call when Dillinger turned 2 in aug? no... does that really matter? do all breeders call their owners? i think not.. but they do poduce very very high quality dobermans... alittle expensive. but i couldnt be more happier with Dillinger.BTW NUPE YOUR DOBERMAN IS GORGOUES!!!! Nupe id love to talk to U more .
obviously many people are happy with their kimbertal Dobermans & Rotties or they would not still be in business.
What I'm saying is that they are a commercial kennel selling non-standard dogs for more than you can buy one from a reputable show breeder OR good sport breeder. They sell to anybody. The picture of the starved puppy is an example of that. How many kimbertal dogs have suffered at the hands of a bad owner?? You guys are probably great owners.... but there are plenty who aren't.
During the past 10 years, I've done a small amount of volunteer work for the Doberman rescue closest to kimbertal - I'd estimate that probably 50% of the Dobermans that come into rescue are either from Kimbertal or go back to Kimbertal dogs. Kimbertal has single handedly contributed heavily to the huge population of dumped Dobermans in this country. And what do they do about it? Sell more of them on full registration so that people can breed them .... way too many of those dogs end up in dismal situations.
A good breeder is very selective about where their dogs go - they can be fooled, but at least they try. They also keep in touch with the owners, sell pets on limited registration and require spay/neuter of pet quality dogs.
For those of you who think that reputable breeders might dislike Kimbertal because they are competition - let me assure you that Kimbertal never has been and never will be my competition. I breed a litter once every 2-3 years with a waiting list. Several of my puppy owners have had or still have a kimbertal Doberman. The only way they would own another one is to rescue one because they won't support breeders like them anymore.
You can do what you want - but before you do, think about all the dogs they breed that end up in lousy homes and ask yourself if that is really the kind of breeder you want to support? Places like Kimbertal will stay in business because people want what they want when they want it - waiting for a puppy is not something that they are willing to do. Also - all the people that good breeders won't sell to will get that puppy somewhere. I will be the first to admit that there are not enough well bred puppies out there for all the people who want one - nor should there be since many of those people should not have a dog.... or even a hamster (soul or no soul :-)
u are right in alot of what u said. im supporting their dogs more than the kennell itself if that makes anysense. i think for the most part they have wonderful dogs,that they should screen owners better. i myself loves the doberman breed ever sice i was a kid about 10 yrs old when my dad bought a doberman in the 1970s bescuse of the crime that started to happen in nj back then. this is my 3rd doberman.and i think he is the best that i have ever had. there are also people out there who can lie to breeders also. and they can turn out to be the worst doberman owners too. i know how much i love the breed,and i will always love the breed for the rest of my life. no dog in my opinion can compare to a doberman. i give my doberman all the love and affection than i possibly could . hes my best freind. and i know that im his also. dont it at least make u feel better that when we buy our dobermans from kimbertal that they and wil be going to great loving homes? your also rite about some people shouldnt even own a hampster. but not every kimbertal owner is like that. and im very sure that there are people who buy from reputal breeders shouldnt own a doberman either or any dog for that matter. i will be getting a red female in the spring of 2012 ,but im not set on kimbertal 100%. i will be also be looking around in my area in nj . so if anyone knows of any breeders in this state please by all meens let me know.
I can see how the kimbertal dogs make up a big percent of the dogs in the shelter near their Kennel. They sell the majority of dobermans or rottweilers in that area. Its the law of averages. By no means am I totally defending Kimbertal....what I was doing was giving a view point of someone who has dealt with them in the past and one of a few on this thread that has actuall personal experience with them. i BELIEVE THERE IS SOME TRUTH TO WHAT IS SAID ABOUT kIMBERTAL ,...BUT is all of it true..I doubt it!!...But hey its all about choices right? All I ask is for people to do their own investigation or checking into any breeder and not just go by hear say!!
and did they call when Dillinger turned 2 in aug? no... does that really matter?
It should, imo. Don't you think a breeder should care about what they produce especially when they're producing more? Shouldn't they be asking you exactly how your dog is doing, whether it's on any medications, whether you have any training or behavioural issues, etc? Shouldn't they be reminding you that it's time to run a thyroid panel, for eg, or giving you info on health news in the breed? I do. I send a 3 page questionaire to my puppy owners annually just ahead of the dog's birthday so that I can wish them a happy birthday and ask them what is going on with the dog we produced, how much it weighs, whether it has had any illnesses, etc. This helps me to do things better, it helps me to head off any problems they might be having. Once I get the replies back, and I usually do, I sit down and write them a puppy update newsletter where I let them know what is going on with the parents of their dog (health testing result updates, title updates, etc) and the same for each littermate. I ask the puppy owners to send new pics so that the newsletter is also full of pics of each one. At the end of the newsletter, I try my best to update them on any advances like the discovery of the DNA test for the PDK4 gene said to cause dcm and how they can test. Or I provide info on something they brought up in the questionaire like walking better on leash, etc.
Beyond that, I maintain a newsgroup for my puppy owners so they can share stories, ask questions, etc at any time through the year. They stay in touch with each other. Everything is open and everyone has the opportunity to know each other. It's nice to know they have each other if I happen to not be available.
A couple of weeks ago were the annual heart appointments at the University of Guelph for my Rory, Moxie and Copper. The owners of Blush and Sammy from my 2008 litter made their appointments for the same day so we could meet up, and then we all went over to another puppy owner's home to visit with Maya, their sister. Coming up is Royal and Zeke's heart appt. Coming along is Jessie from my 2002 litter, Kasey from my 2007 litter and then Maya from my 2008 litter. My owners are given good information to help keep their dogs healthy and to keep them aware. What is Kimbertal doing for you guys after they cashed your checks? How are they showing they care about your dogs?
That is amazing that you do all that Glengate!
thats very nice of u to do that for all your owners. but the bottom line is ,is that it is still up to the owner to be responsible and take care of there own dogs and not the breeders responsibility to remind them of testing ,thyroid etc. and i garentee u are an exception, and are one of the few breeders who does that. i totally agree with nupe about eveything said.exepically in the last statement
Glengate does that because she is a responsible, ethical, caring breeder.
If anyone wants full registration from ktal, how easy is it to get? Do you just have to pay a little more? Can you get dogs cheap, or free, if you agree to breed the bitch? Is there any health testing or any other requirements for doing this? So, for a price, you can now have the rights to become a breeder? Nobody sees the problem with anyone desiring to make a quick buck buying breeding rights, and then becoming a breeder? Good breeders do not do this. Good breeders work hard to pretect their lines, and sell their pet dogs with spay/neuter contracts, and want confirmation from the vet afterwards to make sure it was done. Their show prospects go to experienced homes that know what they're doing. If the person wants to get started, and wants a show pup, they will go on a co-ownership many times, with stipulations.
What health testing is done on the dam? Does the dam not contribute half of the genes? There's times when they have over 600 dogs on site in a year!!! Now, think about how much time we spend with our ONE puppy... Do you think they can provide that same love and care for 600+ in a year? There's reports of poop not being cleaned in the kennels, damaged kennels, cracked doors, etc. In a report from 2009, there was 664 dogs in a 12 month period!! Think about that, it's mind boggling!
Almost every inspection I have seen came back with warning, and dogs that needed to be checked by a vet, and damaged and/or sub-par living conditions. A breeder should not be waiting until they're told to fix these things, they should be fixed as the need arises. Does anyone disagree with that? Do people think it's ok to have large amounts of dogs in a kennel, or barn? Do people think this is better than getting 1 on 1 attention and being raised in a home, with people? Would you leave YOUR dog outside in a barn or kennel run?
Good breeders screen their potential owners, stay in touch, and they know what's happening with their dogs. That's why it's very rare for good breeders dogs to become puppy mill byb's, and end up in rescues, and/or abused with poor living conditions. They will not sell their dog to anyone with enough money, they want to make sure that their puppies are going to good homes. The info is out there for anyone who chooses to find it, it's not hard. Google Kimbertal inspection reports, and you can see this info for yourself.
I know everyone wants to defend their breeder, and their decisions, and that's fine. Nobody is telling you not to love your dog, or that your dog is worthless, and nobody hates you because of a choice of breeder. But take into consideration all of the available information.
kevin have u ever went up there? ive been up there about 8 x .on and off for the last 5 yrs and everytime i was there it was very clean. nothing broken. 600 dogs u say? try about maybe 60..the pups and the sire and damm looked very healthy. everytime the pups were always outside when the weather was nice in a very large fenced in area running ,playing. dont believe everything you read. unless you go up there and see for yourself.
I don't think there is any reasoning with anyone that thinks it's ok to keep puppies in a barn like pigs. We've got completely different philosophies.
These are official reports from the state. 600+ is in a 12 month period. This is not heresay, these are official reports. On other sites, which you can freely access, the workers at Kimbertal were caught in huge amounts of lies. They claimed to have significantly less dogs than they did, they claimed the living conditions were different, and then the inspection reports were posted, and mysteriously, they emplyees disapeared after that. Again, this is not heresay, you can see this all for yourself. They are very up and down in terms of # of dogs... Sometimes they have just a few, sometimes they have tons. Sometimes they're in compliance, sometimes they're not. There's been reports of over 100 dogs at a given time, with dogs needing medical help. Just doesn't seem right to me.
Listen, if someone wants to support a kennel like this, it's your choice. But don't expect others to agree with you on that decision. You've still yet to answer about the testing on the dams. Did you see the mother's pedigree? Or did they pass of the stud's pedigree as the pups, which makes you think it's both parents. Just curious.
Personally, I think puppies should be raised in a home, with people, not in a barn or kennel. I think puppies need lots of 1 on 1 interaction, and need to be socialized. Yes, running around in a yard is fine and dandy. Are they getting any kind of training whatsoever? How are they getting used to being around people? How much individual time do they get with those people? These things, to me, along with many others are very, very important. Are they being taught any kind of bite inhibition? The biggest unsettling things to me, is about the health testing... If I'm not mistaken, (and I could be, check your records) the sires are tested, dams are not. Also, as far as I know, they typically only give you the sires pedigree, not the dam. Why would someone do that? Think about it. How many times is a typical dam bred, and how long in between breedings, and what happens when the dam is no longer suitable for breeding? These are the kinds of things that should also be thought about.
For 2500, anyone that knows anything about dogs would be expecting a fully health tested, show quality pup from champion bloodlines on both sides of the pedigree. Champions would be parents, grandparents, and great grand parents. ANything further back than that is not that significant. I would also expect a dog bred to the standard. Did you get any of this? If not, what makes these dogs better than someone that is doing all of these things for the same price? I'm not saying you don't think your dog is beautiful, but the dog is beutiful by what? There is a standard in place for a reason, and i'd also be curious to know how your dog fits that standard.
A quick look on their site shows that for the dogs I looked at, they don't even show the parents pedigree! They are showing the sire's parents, which are the dogs grandparents! And that's just one side of the pedigree, the other side is not even available. So, you are starting with the grandparents of the puppy, and only on the sire's side. How is this helpful?
Many of the dogs I have seen from this kennel have horrible toplines, almost no tuck, are oversized,
Glengate that is amazing! I know of one other breeder that does that and it is the breeder we got our Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. Breeding dogs, in my opinion, should not be a business, period. I think the breeder we got Ellie from was breaking even and we paid $2000 for her. She came with all her vaccines pre-paid for, we signed contracts to spay her, etc, and we give updates. When we go on vacation, her breeder takes her in. They did it for free when we went on our honeymoon as a wedding present. Cavaliers are known to have heart defects (60%) of them. Ellie's grandmother (AKC Champion) is now 13! If anything goes wrong we call them first, and they provide support.
Right now, I am experiencing first hand why breeding dogs as a business shouldn't happen with Harley, and it is not good (another thread later). Since we don't have the support with Harley like we do with Ellie I have joined this forum. Thanks guys again for all your help!
I live in California so I don't know anything about Kimbertal, but I have one question. What do they do with all the parents producing all these litters when they can no longer produce? Where do they go? As Jess said, they should not be having more than 4 litters in a lifetime. What happens after that?
We love Harley so much! No one is telling you not to love your dog. I like to hear lots of opinions when I make decision. And it looks like you got quite a few of them! Good luck! I am sure your little new little girl will be very special!
i never said my dog was never BETTER THAN ANYOTHER. you did.im just telling you what i seen up there the past 8 x in 5 yrs. i know what i seen and didnt see. if your so concerened than i suggest u take a trip up there and see for yourself. im really not trying to make more of this than what it is. and what i saw. i have to find Dillingers papers and pedigee..... from what i do remember both dam and sire was listed and they were both champion bloodlines. as soon as i find them i will let take a pic of it and post it.
HELLL I AM AMAZED Kimbertal is able to stay open...WOW!! I mean they must be paying off some state senator or something???....I am not going to touch on what they should be doing ethically...I am talking about all the violations that were stated and I am pretty sure the state looks at them very closely. I am just saying.
The state does look closely, and they do make the repairs needed. Point is, it shouldn't take the state coming in for them to make the repairs. Unfortunately, the laws with animals are not that strict. If there's food, water, and acceptable shelter, that's really all that's needed to stay open. The violations I posted were from state reports. Again, this is public info, anyone can view it who wants to.
Given the choice of Kimbertal or Glengate,I'd gladly pay double and wait as long as it takes for the quality,care,and peace of mind that she provides.
If there is one thing about breeders and breeding that upsets me most,it's overbreeding for profit with little to no concern for the breed,their dogs,and the overpopulation of the canine world altogether.
u know what im sure there are ALOT WORSE BREEDERS breeding dobermans that are just back yard breeders that no 1 ever hears about
Yes there are definitely worse. But how does that make it ok? You're fee to support whoever you like, just don't expect others in the dog world to support your decision and agree with it.
Did you ask what happens to the Dam or Sire when they are through having puppies?
Why don't you contact a more reputable breeder and just see what they have to say you have nothing to lose but a phone call?
I think you will have a big surprise if you do not only will you save money you will also have a healthy dog which should be more important than its size!
Wow. IMHO there are several classes of breeders. The first and most desirable and least affordable are the dogs that come from Professional Breeders who breed for the show circuit whether or not they actually show, but most do. They know each other, each others dogs and spend a great deal of time and effort to mate the right bitch with the right dog. If they do not know you, you are unlikely to get one of their puppies, because they usually have a waiting list longer than the the number of puppies in their next litter. Litters may arrive every other year if you are lucky. We are fortunate to have at least two members of this forum who fall into this category. Puppies will be home raised until they go to their selected home.
Then we have the Casual or as they are sometimes called Sport breeders. These are not show people and and the puppies while most likely very good pets, will most likely not be of show quality, but will still be of good quality and good examples of the breed. The puppies will also most likely be home raised, and potential new owners will be screened, either through a written application or interview long before the puppies are available. Litters will be occassional, not regular and the number of litters for a single dam very limited. This breeder was also referred to as a Master Breeder in some of the information on this site.
There are commercial breeders who will have on site or available a large number of dams. Puppies will be raised in kennel settings rather than home settings. The quality of dogs will vary although good records will be kept.
Then we have the BYB where the dogs are bred with little or no consideration of breeding quality and the puppies may be socialized in the home for limited amounts of time but most likely are housed outside in a kennel setting. These puppies will be sold first come first serve to anyone with the money. Care will vary from very good to very poor depending on the individual and circumstances.
Then we have the puppy mill. This breeder switches from breed to breed chasing the one that offers the best income. Multiple breeds and various dogs are kept in haphazard conditions with over crowding and unhealthy conditions prevalent.
OK - Red came from a BYB and I recognized it. I was after a local puppy and when I saw the dam and sire, I knew he would be of poor conformation and oversized. But, I was not after a show dog, but a pet. I got a very good loveable dog, oversized as both his dam and sire were, but also with legs a little short for his body length, again as both his parents were. He had health issues with thyroid and cancer in his lungs in the end, but I am not sure we know enough to know whether either was genetic or not. I got one of the most loveable and loving dogs I have ever had the pleasure to own. Outside he was not a prime specimen, but in temprament and behavior, a real wonderful dog. He was very mellow and got along with everyone.
Princess on the other hand came from a Master Breeder. She was raised inside, and when I inquired about getting a puppy (I wanted one of better quality) I was asked to fill out a long and extensive application. I was set back at first, because I had never been asked to fill one out before. Of course up to this point I had only purchased 4 out of the previouse 11 Dobes because the other 7 were from breedings of my dogs, 6 from a pairing of two of mine and the 7th as a pick of litter as stud fee. But, I then recognized the reason for the application and gladly filled it out. When I picked up Princess it was in a home, and she was already crate trained and a large bag of pre-moistened puppy food which she had been weaned onto for the trip back and to facilitate easy transition to whatever food I was going to (I kept her on the same food until she was six months old). She is a good looking dog, and a loveable girl. She is a little reticent to warm up to strangers, but that is not all that bad. No heath issues to date. She named herself because she was such a good puppy right off the start, I started calling her my "Little Princess".
I have looked at Kimbertal's website and noted the aerial photo of all the kennel runs (I counted about 90 or so). I looked at their puppy application which asked nothing about my experience with dogs, nothing about the conditions to which the puppy was going and nothing about other dogs in the house. They were interested only in my name, address, e-mail and credit information. I have not looked in the last year or so, so they may have changed. They are a commercial breeder and the simple number of dogs housed and bred precludes personal attention to a puppy. They charge a high price and are heavy into advertising in various dog magazines, many times with large ads. In my early days, I had a high opinion of them because of the ad campaign. One may get a good dog from them and it may work out. I firmly believe today, that one can come away from a good breeder with as good or better puppy and a better experience, and may even pay less. Kimbertal has a high overhead, and that dictates a large volume and high prices. They do have to pay the bills from the puppy revenue or go out of business.
But, one can certainly do worse and many do. Some BYB's will be worse and some better and certainly the puppy mills are certainly far worse.
Thank You Rick for that concise and most interesting report.
It can be very confusing to new owners who want nothing more than a good pet, how easy they can be swayed into promoting greeders and those people who have only $ signs in their eyes..
I truly hope there is some one reading this post who will take it to heart and learn from it.
You have been a wealth of information from the very beginning and we appreciate your efforts so much
Kate and Sofia
Thanku RGREEN4 for the info. Befor i got Dillinger from Kimbertal, i had a Bullmastiff that i got from a well know breeder in CO. i did alot of reserch of the breed and quality breeders. i started talking to her on the phone. the female lived in CO.and the male lived in long island ny. both were show dogs with numerous titles. at that time i had my 2 yr. old son. and she was telling how the breed would be around very young children, etc, etc, she made sure that i got the right temperment Bullmastiff for my paticular family and living circumstances. she wanted me to go and see the male at a show in long island ny. and talk to males owners and breeders over there. we did everything she suggested to do befor purchasing our bullmastiff from her in co. we talked numoeous times on the phone with the male breeder in ny and the female breeder out in CO. Goliath my bullmastiff i bought from her in CO. was bred by frozen semen that was shipped to CO. from ny. he came with a limited registation. i had to have him nueterd. also she made sure that i had a fenced in yard ,that was another requirement. we were talking from the very begining of her pregnacy on the phone. and then when the litter came she sent my all pics of the litter of those precious little bullmastiffs. we talked and talked and talked. finally when the pups were 8 weeks old they were shipped out to their new owners. i picked up goliath at laguadia airport in ny. after i met once again the males breeder who handed me little goliath. michelle the breeder out in CO. kept in touch with me for years on end , with my qustions or concerns i had at anytime of the day or night.she would also call periodically to se how Goliath was doing. it was a very nice feeling to know that she was very concerend for me and Goliath. Goilath live to an age of 13 . i had to put him down due to some health issues. it broke my heart . what im trying to say is that i did have expirence dealing with a breeder that was far away. and it was a very good expirence. so i do know were all you guys are comming from. thank you all for your very valuable infomation. i love the doberman breed very very much,and will never ever own another breed of dog . all im saying is what i experienced first hand from kimbertal. and i have or had no regrets or complaints . Dillinger is an awsom looking doberman, with no health issues. his temperment is awsom.we couldnt be happier together. and do u really think 2500.00 is alot ? i heard of just having their ears cropped could be as much as 1000.00.
R Green: "IMHO there are several classes of breeders. The first and most desirable and least affordable are the dogs that come from Professional Breeders who breed for the show circuit whether or not they actually show, but most do. They know each other, each others dogs and spend a great deal of time and effort to mate the right bitch with the right dog. If they do not know you, you are unlikely to get one of their puppies, because they usually have a waiting list longer than the the number of puppies in their next litter. Litters may arrive every other year if you are lucky. We are fortunate to have at least two members of this forum who fall into this category. Puppies will be home raised until they go to their selected home."
I think you put a lot of thought into your post but want to point out some inaccuracies as I see them.
Kimbertal charges $2500 for a puppy and the average show breeder charges $2000 - so I'm thinking that "least affordable" does not apply :-) And yes, we do have waiting lists, but I personally don't take deposits so people are free to back out. In both of my litters, I had puppies available when homes backed out. I sold to people I didn't know that will never show. I checked those people out very well, and am happy to say that they are all fantastic homes. There are people who show Dobermans that I would never sell to because I don't think that they are a good home. My definition of a good home may be different from someone elses.
Also "sport breeder" to me would be someone involved seriously in the working sports of Schutzhund, french ring, etc.... I would expect that a good breeder of sport dogs would have about the same price for a puppy and hopefully put the same amount of effort into making sure that the puppies go to a good home. There are lots of people claiming to breed both show dogs and sport dogs (euro greeders) that are not what they say.
JMHO
Photo Gallery
DILLINGER TRYING TO GET HIM TO STAY STILL FOR THE CAMEREAPet Profiles
by the way i paid $2500.00 for dillinger and i think he was worth every dollar. so im assuming that i will be paying that again for my next doberman,,,, now im really leaning to the female.